Todd Tobias: Guided by Voices, Rough Treatment, and Circus Devils

With his work on numerous projects, Ohio musician, engineer, and producer Todd Tobias has been quietly demonstrating his skills in all three roles for over a decade, many of which have involved indie-rock legends Guided by Voices and their prolific frontman, Robert Pollard . His clear, powerful recordings of GBV and Pollard allowed them to transcend their original "lo-fi" pigeonhole, while still avoiding overproduction. Todd's talent for experimental sound-sculpting is evident from his own musical pursuits, which include Circus Devils (a studio project with Pollard on vocals), and Brother Earth, as well as solo releases. Operating from his studio, Waterloo Sound (originally in Kent, Ohio, and currently near Cleveland in Brecksville), Tobias has also engineered and produced albums for George Griggs, Kramies, The Library is on Fire, and many others.

What gear are you working with at Waterloo Sound?

I track on a few different machines. There's an Alesis HD24 hard drive recorder, a Tascam 1-inch, 16-track tape machine, and a Teac 8-track, 1/2-inch machine. Over the years, I've come to peace with the equipment I'm able to have, as opposed to feeling sad about equipment I can't have. My board is a 32-channel Mackie, made in the '90s. I've always wanted to replace it, but I haven't been able to. I used to be angry at it and blame it for bad work, but Chris Keffer [at Magnetic North Studio], who masters most of my stuff, helped me get over that. Chris helped to instill the idea in me that an engineer proves his ability by doing good work, in spite of sub-professional equipment.

What about microphones?

Most of my condensers came from a studio that went bust years ago. I inherited other mics from my friend, Scott Bennett, who ran the old Waterloo Sound in his house [in Kent, Ohio]. I go to Shure dynamics a lot for drums, amps, and vocals. I also like the Cascade Fat Head ribbon mic on amps. There's an Oktava tube mic that gets used on vocals and acoustic instruments. I have [Sennheiser] MD 421s for bass cabinet and toms, [AKG] D 112 on kick drums, and an Electro-Voice 635A on vocals. For acoustic guitar and ride cymbal overheads, I like the [Shure] SM81. A good, neutral-sounding condenser that I use a lot on vocals and drum overheads is the Audio-Technica AT4050. I also like the built-in mic on the old boombox Bob [Pollard] uses to make demos!

You also use a Vintech X73 preamp for the snare mic. How did you decide on that preamp?

Chris Keffer had one of those in his studio. I admire a lot of recordings from the '70s, and whenever I'd talk to engineers they all seemed to be in agreement that this was the preamp for that fat snare sound. That is an important part of the drum sound to me.

What do you have for tracking rooms?

I built them out of an open basement, which I partitioned into a control room and two main recording rooms. They're small — about 9 by 12 feet. I couldn't afford to line the walls with hardwood, so I ended up completely deadening one room with fiberglass insulation, and I angled the walls so I wouldn't get standing waves. I have complete control of the sound in that room. The other room has some concrete walls, so I get reflections that aren't completely controllable. It has a little bit of a "bathroom ring" to it. Between the two rooms I can get a selection, and sometimes I'll put the drums in a third room that connects with the garage. It's full of standing waves, but it's a nasty enough "live" sound that, for some songs, it does the trick. In the old Waterloo studio, there was a big main room with hardwood floors; I could get a room sound and use it as part of the song. At the new studio, other than in the room with the nasty reflections, I'm not really able to do that. The drum sound at the new studio's more tight; I have to simulate room sounds with reverbs, or by putting a mic far off in another room. At first I was bummed out about that, but I haven't heard any feedback saying that the sound has deteriorated or anything. The first album of Bob's I did here was We All Got Out of the Army , and after that was Moses on a Snail .

The drums on your recordings still sound like they're being recorded in a space.

That's good. The room mic is actually a couple rooms away, and it's a Shure SM57 that I have pointed at the soundboard on a piano. After I moved out of the old studio, I missed having wood as part of the drum sound. The only wood surface I have now is the piano's soundboard. I get the reflection off that, and the distance from the source creates a little bit of a slapback. I assume the wood gives me a better reflection than the drywall and rough concrete in the basement walls, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

There's a on many of the records you've made.

Sometimes I'll bus the bass drum and snare into a stereo compressor and run that back in under the mix, just to give them a little bump. I never noticed it overwhelming the drums with noise, or anything like that, but the aim is to give them a little bit of a kick. Usually I'll compress the room mic heavily and bring it up under the mix. Phase is important; I'm careful about phase while recording, just so we can get everything punching through. When I mix, I'm going back and forth between stereo and mono [monitoring] to check the phase situation, in case something was overlooked during tracking. I like to mix in mono anyway, on a tiny boombox, in addition to the [Yamaha] NS-10s, in the studio.

Your recordings tend to sound professional, without having an overproduced sheen.

Making a natural-sounding recording is important to me. I'm not schooled in any formal "production," so I just come at it with my ears. I'm not referencing any other recordings to try to sound like other people, and if a band ever comes to me and says, "Oh, we brought this record, can you make us sound like this," I just tell them I don't do that. I don't listen to anybody else's recordings and try to mimic them. 

The Robert Pollard albums you've done seem cleanly-recorded, but occasionally there'll be songs that are intentionally distorted and abrasive, like "Kensington Cradle" on From a Compound Eye.

Yeah., either by putting the drums in a space where I get nasty wall reflections, or by distorting drum tracks. It's a combination of things. Sometimes I use an old '50s Webcor mono tube reel-to-reel deck and overdrive the input on that, which was the case with "Kensington Cradle." There are microphones, like the Electro-Voice 635A, that may not have a big frequency range, but that have a certain character in the midrange. Distortion pedals, running vocals or drums through amplifiers, more distant mic'ing, less close mic'ing, hard compression on distant mics... all those things can contribute to a rough treatment.

What's the benefit of giving songs that treatment?

I think it can give a song a sense of being in its own unique space, like the effect of listening to old songs recorded back in the '30s. The recording medium does a lot to determine the aura around a song. Do we record it on 24-track digital, 16-track tape, 8-track tape, or 1-track mono? I think it depends on the material. It has to be the right kind of song for that kind of treatment.

How did you come to start working as an engineer and producer?

I started with a cassette 4-track, doing instrumental music for my own enjoyment. I guess you'd call it experimental rock. I was also playing drums and bass in bands with my brother Tim [Tobias], who eventually joined Guided by Voices. That was in the late '90s. Tim showed Bob Pollard some of my music, and Bob proposed that the three of us form a new band called Circus Devils. That was in 2001. I've been working with Bob on most of his projects ever since then.

What was the first studio album you produced?

Universal Truths and Cycles, by Guided by Voices. It came out in 2002. That was my first experience in a studio as a non-musician, and I was the producer. [laughter] Everything I did before that was done at home, on the 4-track.

That's a pretty decent way to kick off a career! How was the experience of recording GBV for the first time?

Aside from the music? Sometimes I was afraid to step outside the control room.

Yeah, I would think their reputation preceded them.

Bob was good about making sure that anyone not doing actual work was kept out of the control room, so that was a big help. On the music side, it was intimidating at first, but I dove in and did all the engineering and mixing. I felt compelled to do everything, because I wanted to learn. I'd been through an engineering course in the mid-'80s at the Recording Workshop in Chillicothe, Ohio, but all I remembered from that was how to edit and splice tape with a razor blade. All the technical, gear-related stuff was mostly forgotten. What helped me the most was just recording Universal Truths... , and learning by doing it. We went to a studio in Dayton called Cro-Magnon, and the owner, John Shough, was kind enough to let me take over the project and to be there when I needed to ask questions. The process was strange, because I was thrown into this situation that I had no bearings for. But, at the same time, after listening back to the record, it gave me confidence that I could keep doing it. I'm grateful to Bob for giving me that chance to learn.

What was the hardest part of that experience, from a technical standpoint?

Getting to know compressors. I just went full-tilt into using compression on that record. I had no idea about the theory of it, so I was just approaching it with my ears, twisting knobs until it sounded right. So it's kind of embarrassing, because I should've at least read up on it. [laughter] Aside from that, the hardest part was probably just mixing with 24 tracks, plus all the bus tracks. When we were mixing, we had three guys up on the board doing stuff.

Robert Pollard with Todd Tobias mixing Guided by Voices' Half Smiles of the Decomposed in 2003. Rich Turiel.

Robert Pollard & Todd 2008, tracking Elephant Jokes .

Todd's basement studio control room. Aka: Waterloo II (2012). Carla Ballestero.

Did GBV choose you to record them partly because they wanted to get away from the slicker sound they'd gotten on the previous two records [ Do the Collapse and Isolation Drills ], when they'd worked with big-name producers [Ric Ocasek and Rob Schnapf ]?

I think Bob wanted a paradigm shift in the band, and he was kind of finished with the whole "big-name producer" approach. So the switch to me was about as radical as you could make. That paradigm shift extended not just to their production, but even to their appearance. I think some of the guys in the band grew facial hair at that point. [laughter]

Some songs from Universal Truths... , like "Eureka Signs" or "Everywhere With Helicopter," seemed to hit , in terms of retaining clarity and a big sound, but without overproduction. There were also some shorter ones that were more roughly recorded.

It was a patchwork approach. The different rooms we were using on Universal Truths... probably had more to do with the sound of that record than my engineering did. On Do the Collapse or Isolation Drills , you get a homogenous sound, from front to back. But on Universal Truths... , the drums were set up in one room, recorded, taken down, set up in another room, recorded, taken down — plus I'd recorded one song on the 8-track tape machine, and another one on ADAT. They did half the record at one studio, and half at another.

Where did you go, besides Cro-Magnon?

Waterloo Sound in Kent, when it was still in Scott [Bennett]'s house.

The next two albums you did for GBV — Earthquake Glue and Half Smiles of the Decomposed — seemed more consistent sonically, even though there was still an occasional rough snippet.

Earthquake Glue was all recorded at Cro-Magnon, and Half Smiles was all recorded at Waterloo. There was less of a patchwork approach on those, but it was still going on, in the sense that we'd record certain songs on the 8-track tape machine, and then switch to 24-track ADAT or 2-inch tape for others.

In 2012 you helped record the reunited, original Guided by Voices lineup on Class Clown Spots a UFO , and The Bears for Lunch . It sounds like the reunited lineup's recording process was quite a bit different from the way you made the three records during the early 2000s.

Oh, yeah. There was a lot more production going on with the lineup I worked with in the early 2000s. Bob was working with more seasoned musicians, who had a head-level approach to playing — which isn't better or worse than an intuitive approach, just different. Also, I was more production-happy in those days, because I was new to the process and wanted to try things. We spent lots of time on overdubs and I was adding in my noise textures. But when I did Bears for Lunch , Bob just wanted to set up and play. The reunited lineup is all about capturing a performance. On Bears for Lunch , most of the songs I tracked are first takes, and tracking was completed in one afternoon, including vocals. Those guys don't want to get bogged down doing 50 takes of a guitar solo. That's part of the charm of the original lineup — not being produced. They got along so well that the entire process worked really smoothly. It's an approach that fits that particular group of guys.

How much of that album did you record?

Bears for Lunch was mostly recorded here, except for Tobin's [Sprout] songs. We recorded a lot of it on the 16-track 1-inch machine; but we didn't buy new tape for that album, and the tape hadn't been treated well. It's a little rougher sounding than pristine tape would be.

What about Class Clown... ?

On Class Clown... I just recorded two songs, the title track and one called "Blue Babbleships Bay." Their approach, for the majority of that record, was just to get things down live. It'd be okay if it was rough, but they wanted more care put into the title track. Bob probably figured I'd be able to handle the mixing and layering of the background vocals in a certain way.

What do you think of the production on the original lineup's earlier albums, before you started working with them, like Bee Thousand or Alien Lanes , when they were recording on 4-track?

I think the sound of those records gives the songs a kind of alien aura, or at least an aura removed from run-of-the-mill studio recordings. It was never a conscious decision on their part to make "lo-fi recordings." They were working with the tools at hand. I like the sonic textures of small tape formats, like cassette. If people call it "lo-fi" that's fine, but I don't think in those terms. The attachments I have are to those textures, not to a "lo-fi" sound, in principle. But they're not appropriate for every project.

How do you and Bob go about recording his solo albums? You've tended to play most of the instruments on them.

Lately, he's been doing most of his basic rhythm guitar tracks himself. That's how the sessions start. He'll put down his guitar and vocal tracks, and leave the rest for me to do. I'll put everything else on and send him the finished record. He says it's like Christmas — he loves hearing that come back to him, all finished.

What's the recording process like for his vocals?

He'll record one pass; we'll go back and listen, then we'll stop and punch in, line-by-line wherever he wants to fix something. He does well with the [Shure] SM58 and, for quiet acoustic songs, the AT4050.

"I like to get the sense of a song that's straining to break free of itself. I don't mean in an obvious way, like screaming and mayhem, but like something's rumbling below the surface."

Bob called you his "George Martin" in an interview, and said your success rate at interpreting his solo material is about "95 percent." What about the other five percent?

Usually I don't do more than one mix. I send Bob the mix I come up with for each song, and I let him tell me if he wants me to redo anything. So far, there haven't been many. It's usually just that he either wants his vocal to come through stronger, or he wants a guitar to come through stronger.

But it's never a major change, or a complete re-think of the song.

No. This is the thing that I didn't really understand from the beginning. I just assume that when I'm working with somebody and interpreting their songs, that there's going to be some contention. You have two different people, and two different sensibilities. So I started off assuming there'd be a lot of issues. On Universal Truths... I'd get Bob's approval for every decision I was making, because I thought that was how it's done. I wasn't going to take off in my own direction, so I'd consult with Bob. But time and time again, he'd just say, "Yeah! Do that." [laughter] I've come to trust myself, based on his reaction to the work I do, and it's worked out. 

What's the source material you use for a lot of the Circus Devils tracks?

I use an Ensoniq ASR-10 sampling keyboard, and I make a lot of homemade samples. I also make samples from existing sources that I mess with extensively, so they're not recognizable. A lot of the homemade samples are taken from previous work, like slowed-down percussion. Some other material comes from my brother, Tim. He sends me 4-track tapes, and I'll mess with them. When the song's done, . I have to tell him, "That's your song." And he'll say, "What? I never heard that in my life."

What's your process for writing on the Ensoniq?

I try to create a song bed using a single sound or a loop. Whatever it is usually doesn't resemble the finished song. I'm working blind, and trusting that things will take shape once I start building the instruments around it. Writing this way is a completely different feeling, compared to sitting down with a guitar. It's scary, because I can't get a sense of the song until I'm three or four stages into it. It's trust in the process that keeps me going.

What led you to make your solo album, Medicine Show , all instrumental?

I don't write for a specific project, usually. I just do music to do it, and then I'll decide if I want to audition it to Bob for a Circus Devils record. I'll usually send him way more music than he needs, so he has a lot to pick from. The solo album is a mixture of songs that were auditioned for Circus Devils but didn't get used, and a few songs I wrote for the project itself.

The Library is on Fire album you recorded, , sounds a little more clean and produced than the other records you've made.

On Magic Windows, we — [frontman] Steve [Five] and I — were more conscious of the sound on that record, and we made sure to use certain kinds of amps that he wanted. When I'm working on my own music, I won't go out and rent equipment for the sake of a recording; I'll just use what I have because I know it so well. But for that record he had specific ideas about the sound, and he got the equipment to match the sound he wanted. So if the production on that record seems like it's a step above, it's because there was more care taken on the tracking side with getting all the sounds. I'm really happy with how that record came out.

What are some of your favorite albums?

I like [The Beatles'] Revolver and " White Album" a lot. Meddle by Pink Floyd. There's a freedom and imagination in the songwriting on those records, and also great sounds. [Brian] Eno's Another Green World. Devo's first two albums. I like Scott Walker — there's a lot of imagery on his records, in the orchestral arrangements and use of effects. I like Tom Waits. I can detect the playfulness on his records. You can tell he's having a good time. 

You once mentioned Bernard Herrmann, Hitchcock's composer, to me as an influence.

I like the way he creates tension by using simple phrases that repeat and fight against each other. He knew how to create an unsettling mood, and how to do it in a simple way. A lot of the composers who try to copy his style don't get it right. They always try too hard, and get fancy and cute with the arrangements. . 

I definitely see those attributes in a lot of Circus Devils stuff. How do you create that sort of tension, aside from using a lot of minor chords?

I like to get the sense of a song that's straining to break free of itself. I don't mean in an obvious way, like screaming and mayhem, but like something's rumbling below the surface. With Circus Devils, I think it's our unspoken aim to create that kind of tension. It doesn't need to build to a climax or anything. Most of the time there's no climax; it's just the mood that's important. For whatever reason, it's usually a creepy mood. We want people to hear it and think, "What's happening here? I don't know what it is, but something's happening." I hope that sense of mystery will draw in the listener, not just make them want to shut it off. 

Based on the song titles and musical atmosphere, it seems like there's a theme of magic and ritual on the album, which might be said for some Circus Devils music too. Also, on one of the Pollard albums, Standard Gargoyle Decisions , the credits describe one song's end section as "conjured by Todd Tobias." Do you think of music and production as a kind of magic or alchemy?

Yeah. I don't want to go too far off the deep end, but for me, a Circus Devils album is an alchemical product.

It sounds that way when you describe how your brother sends you music, and how you change it so drastically that he doesn't recognize it when he hears it back.

Bob calls it "the two factories." It's like there's a "north factory" and a "south factory" and one factory doesn't know what the other one's doing. [laughter] It makes it interesting, just because the result's a surprise to everyone. But in terms of the themes of magic and mysticism, that's just a product of my own personal fascinations. I think Bob shares that; maybe in a different way.

Do you have a basic approach to production?

The sound of a record comes down to two factors, in my mind. There's the choice between live and dead sources — letting the room shape the sound, or recording things dry and adding effects later. The second factor is how to combine textures, in terms of tape with digital, roughed-up sources with clean sources, plus distant mics and close mics — those kinds of contrasting elements. Sometimes it's best to keep it all coherent, without combining textures. It depends on the song. I have no preset way of approaching a song; I let it tell me what it wants. I try to approach each record as a new experiment. In terms of sonics, it's always an experiment because I don't archive how I achieve sounds. I don't get a guitar sound and write down how I did it. There's a downside to that, because maybe I got a great sound, but I don't remember exactly how I did it. But then again, not writing it down, not collecting a set of instructions for myself, allows the work to be fresh. 

toddtobiasmusic. bandcamp. com