A little over a year ago, a record under the guise of OP8 was released which was a collaboration between Howe Gelb, Joey Burns, John Convertino (all of Giant Sand) and Lisa Germano. It's one of those records that creates such a strong vibe, which has a great deal to do with the way it was recorded. Around the same time, Richard Buckner released Devotion and Doubt which is one of the purest and most beautiful recordings I had heard in a long time. Both were recorded at Wave Lab Studios in Tucson, Arizona, by Craig Shumacher who has also recorded Barbara Manning, Friends of Dean Martinez, Bill Janovitz (of Buffalo Tom) and Calexico. I called him at his studio one day to talk to him about his methods and ideas, and we spoke for over an hour and a half. Unfortunately I only had 40 minutes of tape. Had I known he would be so friendly and eager I would've been better prepared, but he did provide quite a bit of interesting information in the first 40 minutes...
It seems like whenever I see your name credited on records, it's along with Nick Luca, Joey Burns, and John Convertino. What is your working relationship with those guys?
Well Nick, he's the other engineer here. He has a master's degree in music. He came here with a four piece jazz combo and started recording with me a number of years ago and then he had graduated from school and had nothing going on at the time. He wanted a job so I said "I can't pay you but you can hang around the studio" and he said, "Sure."
So would you say you're more of the expert at the studio?
No, not really, I mean, I'm the owner more or less. The studio is a sole proprietorship in my name, but Nick had a lot of experience in music and engineering doing things at school and he really took to it. Around that same time, we were sort of getting inundated with requests to make records with Joey and Johnny because they were the rhythm section du jour for a number of projects. I originally met those guys through Howe Gelb with Giant Sand and that splintered into the Friends of Dean Martinez record, which I believe brought in other artists who wanted that sound. That sound is really made up of those two guys, John's drum and vibe playing and Joey's cello, guitar, accordion, and general madness... and this place here being a big warehouse has a rather ambient sound...
I wanted to ask you about that. That sound is so unique; with the playing of those two guys and the way you capture the sound. I refer to it as 'desert core.'
That's a nice title, I like that. Desert core.
It has that real 'Arizona-it's-hot-out' feel.
That's probably because it's real hot in the studio when we're doing it.
Is there any instrument that those guys don't play?
As far as I know harmonica. That's my gig. And horns. If there's ever any bad trumpet or trombone that's usually me. Joey plays cello, mandolin, guitar, bass, accordion, and then anything else he can get his hands on pretty much.
They're touring right now as Calexico right? With Dirty Three?
I believe so, yes. And I just finished a record with this duo from France which was kind of like a Calexico thing but a little more edgy, a little more eclectic with just drums and guitar but more rock than Calexico.
How did you get that job- a band from France!?
Well, the same thing really- this one guy's wife has lived in the States, in Tucson, and she was a big Giant Sand fan. They moved here and got to know Joey and Johnny and all those guys and they came to me and said we want to make a record at Wave Lab- we're almost done with that one- so they were looking for sort of the same thing.
What kind of setup do have out there?
The actual studio itself is in a big warehouse by the railroad tracks hence the trains in all of our recordings.
That's great! You've got to take advantage of your surroundings.
The building is an older building for Tucson. This is a pretty young city so some parts of this building go back to 1910.
That sounds like up here in Portland.
Yeah, there's that industrial area... I'm sure its pretty similar. The West has that sort of tendency, so these are all turn of the century buildings that then grew through the various times of America's development. You can definitely trace the areas- here's the pre world war II section and then here's the post war section. This whole building is over 80,000 square feet of which I occupy a little over 3,000.
That's big- is it basically just one big open room?
I have one really big open room which is the main cutting room and then there's two other rooms. I have a vocal booth and the control room, which is also fairly large, but most of the tracking is done in the big room.
I assume you record all of your drums in there.
Yeah, pretty much. Most drummers will come in and set up their drums and the first time they hit their drums they'll say something like, "Oh my god! They sound so great!"
I wanted to ask you some more about that. I was listening to the OP8 record and was really impressed with the drum sounds.
Yeah, that's Johnny's whole schtick there.
How do you go about miking drums in that room?
With John I have a tendency to use usually only about four mics. Generally an AKG D112 on the kick, a SM 57 on the snare, and two overheads of some kind. Now if its my deal, and nobody has any money (which most people don't), I'm using (AKG) C1000's. But if someone's paying, we go and rent a couple of (Neumann) U87's from another studio in town.
So you don't have a large mic collection?
No, I have not made the big leap. My top mics in the arsenal are an (AKG) 414 PL2 and an (Audio Technica) 4050. Those are my two large diaphragms. The C1000's I've been leaning heavily on for a number of years. They're really nice overhead mics.
I have one of those but I've never used a pair.
Well they're nice and they've come way down in price.
Yeah, they're under $200. AKG for some reason has reduced the price of a lot of their mics. Their C3000's are under $300 now.
Yeah. And then the other mic I use a lot- I have a lot of AKG's for some reason, I think its because Rainbow Guitars here in town is the most pro-audio music store- he's the guy I always go to for advice- he says "you've got to try this one" and I do and then I keep them. I have a small condenser of their's, I think the number is a 460- and I use that a lot. I use it on acoustic guitars. For cello and stand-up bass I use the PL2. I use the 4050 for vocals but on the OP8 record all of Lisa Germano's vocals were done with a 57.
Really!
Yeah, she held a 57 in her hand. She wouldn't have anything to do with that standing up thing. She sat on a bench.
It's really encouraging to know you're getting such great recordings with minimal techniques, especially your drum sounds.
Well, a lot of it has to do with the player's kit. You get a good drummer with a good kit and you can get a great sound with one mic. I don't mic the inside of a kick drum, I always, like with John, mic the kick with a D112 about six to eight inches, sometimes even a foot away. Sometimes I use five mics. I'll use the C1000's sort of as lower overheads to pick up the toms and cymbals and then place a large diaphragm mic as the higher overhead behind his head.
You'll use your 4050?
The 4050 or the PL2 or, if I've rented, the U87. On some of the records we played around with some figure eight patterns- one in front of the kit and one behind. I stumbled across this "behind the head" technique which I'm sure other people have done. The first time I did that I remember John coming into the control room and hearing that mic and saying "that's how my drums sound!" I thought, "Well, that makes sense... I sort of miced his head."
I've heard about people putting mics right by the drummer's ears because they're so used to hearing it that way.
Yeah, it really makes them happy. In fact, I acquired a beta 56, the right angle housed Shure, and I was all hot-to-trot to use it because it was a beta Shure and it was built like a tank. I put that on his snare and he wouldn't have anything to do with it. He was upset. He said "that doesn't sound good!" If I don't put a 57 on his snare he's pretty upset.
That's the way everyone's always heard a snare.
Yeah. I don't really have any expensive mics to use anyway. If I need them I rent them. When we did the Friends of Dean Martinez record Sub Pop was paying so we rented the U87's for a couple of weeks
How much does that cost you?
Well, I get a good break from a studio in town. This is a small town so there's a pretty good working relationship between everybody. I don't consider myself in competition with any of the other studio's because I'm my own animal. I didn't go the ADAT route, I use a 2" 16 track...
What kind is it?
It's an MCI built in 1977. I only run it at 15 ips with (Ampex) 456 mainly because the machine doesn't like to run at 30 ips. When we did the Richard Buckner record we pushed it at 30 ips because MCA was paying and we had to pretend we were a big studio, and it was a nightmare because you get all those motors rolling twice as fast and all the control logic changes so there were some dicey moments but the whole time that was going on it was supposed to be demo work so my attitude was "Hey, its a demo, what do you want me to do? I'm not getting paid like its some whoop-dee-dink record."
That's really interesting because I think that record sounds amazing.
Most all the drums and guitars and vocals were recorded here. My friend JD Foster, who produced it, wanted Rick to come out here to get into the desert vibe and work with Joey and Johnny. We had a lot of fun. The song "On Traveling"... there's some cello stuff, and John is doing some ambient drumming, and Rick is playing a chord organ and singing, and we have a cricket going on. That was the first night they were here. Rick went to a thrift store and found this Magnus chord organ...
I see those at every thrift store I go to.
Yeah, he found one here and he plugged it in and started playing and singing and JD said "we gotta get this" so we miced him up and the next thing you know Johnny jumps out there rumbling on his thunder drum and toms and Joey starts doing his squeaky cello thing and then there was this cricket that was kind of bugging us so JD said "the hell with it! Mic the cricket!" So then the cricket had the nerve to stop playing so we had to loop the cricket.
Was the cricket particular as to what mic you were using?
Well, the cricket, just like everyone else, had red light fever. When we started recording he just stopped. There was a lot of wackiness going on during that time. JD Foster is a brilliant producer. It was a big deal for me to be involved in the record, it being on MCA and all. I had all these aspirations...
But at the time you thought it was a demo?
Well, yeah, but I also thought that if I did a good job I would get more work down the road and at that time I could get a much better rate than I normally charge. So anyway, we were having some problems with running the machine at 30 ips, it was warbling, and I thought, maybe its a sign that I'm getting ahead of myself, maybe I should just stick to what I do best. So then I decided the hell with it, if they don't come back, at least we had a good time doing it, we cut some good tracks. There's not much anyone else can ask for. But they did come back, that was in July which is monsoon season so that really put some interesting vibe on the record. We had one day that went from dry and hot to humid and hot and we couldn't tune a guitar to save our lives. So this storm came in and started rattling the vents on the roof as well as the roll up door. We had the U87's sitting in the middle of the room both in figure eight, and JD said "this sounds pretty cool, why don't you get some of it on tape." Then Rick jumps up and say's "I want to sing" so he starts singing "Fader" and he sang it for so long that the storm ended, but while he was singing there was so much noise from all the rattling and dust and dirt blowing up against the door, I mean, this place is so not studio its not even funny. I can't afford to put in big thick doors with perfect insulation... I don't even have air conditioning, I use a swamp cooler for God's sakes! Listen, there's a train going by right now [clearly audible over the phone], I have many people say, "how can you be a recording studio with that environment?" So, back to the story, we have multiple takes of him singing on DAT. I flew his vocal, the stereo Neumanns, onto the computer, I use an audio media card with a Macintosh and Sound Designer. I used the takes without the storm, after it was over. I edited together the best version of the verses. Then we flew that back to the 2" tape in stereo. Then I randomly edited together the storm, and just by sheer luck it was magic to the point where when he would pause there would be percussive sounds or rocks and dust hitting the building like it was a drum. We were floored by it. But, we were using used tape that had been spliced together and we experienced drop out. We had to go back and recreate our perfect accident! I actually had to do it again recently for some sort of interview/out- take collection- I only had it saved on the computer in backup. MCA called and said they wanted it for this project so I figured it was a way to make some more money...
You gotta milk the majors for all you can...
Yeah, but they never pay you like they say they will but that's another story. And if they do you're going to wait a long time. Oh, another good story about that session is the take of "Lil' Wallet Picture." The guitar and vocal on that was cut live at four in the morning the last day they were here before they were about to go to Austin to start over dubbing. We had several renditions of the song including versions with bass and drums and other instruments but it never quite came together to Rick's satisfaction. JD was really pushing for the song because it was a little more poppy, more radio friendly than most of his other songs but Rick wanted a more heartfelt version and he was really bucking the idea of a produced version. Syd Straw and the Skeletons were playing at Congress and Howe Gelb had just gotten back into town from Europe and they all came over and Syd got us all stoned and started telling us all these horror stories about being on the road with Bob Weir and all. Then they left, and Rick stood up and said "I want to do "Lil' Wallet Picture." He grabbed his guitar, went into the vocal booth, we hooked up the 4050 and the 460 and away he went. That's the version on the record, they just added some steel and other instruments in Austin.
Have you been experimenting with any studio trickery lately?
I guess one thing I've discovered about myself and my philosophy and what Wave Lab does best is that I really try to capture the natural acoustic of the instrument, good or bad. I don't use many effects although I've started getting into compression a bit more probably because I've got better compressors now. I now have a couple of LA4's and LA3's. I don't think I could do a vocal track on mix without reaching for an LA3.
What were you using before that?
I had a Behringer or something like that. I still have it in my rack, but you know...
Do you have any formal training?
No. I started in my garage with a half inch 8-track. I was a midi freak with keyboards! I didn't know what I was doing but I was really enamored by the whole keyboard explosion of the early 80's and all of the possibilities.
And now you've flushed it all down the toilet.
Yeah, give me a Fender Rhodes, give me a Wurlitzer, give me a Hammond Organ. I went full circle. I still have my Casio CZ101- its got that crazy sound everyone likes- it's got that wheel that makes it sound nuts! I used to have mini-Moog here but the guy took it back which is a shame because we used to use it for bass a lot. I want to get my hands on one of those again because they're great for bass. JD taught me that trick, using the little zip strip for the pitch wheel.
How are you recording the bass now, without the mini-Moog?
I just purchased one of those sans-amp boxes for bass DI. It's really cool! For one session I did recently I took the recorded DI sound out from the board plugged that into an amp and miced the amp and recorded it onto another track. I only have 16 tracks so I have to be careful about using them but on that particular session we were borrowing a Studer 24 track with a Neve sidecar.
It makes it kind of hard to go back doesn't it?
It really does, but you know, in this business it's easy to get caught up in wanting the things you don't have and telling yourself that you would be better if you had them. But you have to remember, that if you can be good with what you have, imagine how much better you will be when you do get that stuff. I look at it like this: if you were a professional runner and everyday you went out and ran with army boots on, imagine what will happen when you finally take off the boots and put on running shoes. I read Mix magazine and I go through it and sometimes I'm full of gear lust, and other times I just think, well, I'll never get there. Recently I was out in L.A. with an up and coming producer from Tucson named Harvey Mason, we were visiting his uncle who is a famous jazz drummer at this studio, I don't even know the name of it if it even had one but it was amazing- two Neve rooms, Studers, Neumanns everywhere. There was a Leslie cabinet miced up with three Neumanns, it was that kind of deal. Me, I'm using a 58 or a 57 or whatever. It was funny, my emotions ranged from being totally disgusted because I'll never get there, to feeling fine about it because I don't know if I really want to.
I think your recordings sound great the way you're doing it- they always have such a unique vibe.
I think vibe is really important. In this day and age, vibe has been passed over for the name of tech, and I think that's the downfall for a lot of music. You gotta know how to capture the vibe. I've learned a lot from guys like Howe Gelb, he's been a huge influence. He's a firm believer in the idea of always rolling tape because you never know. JD is also one of these people. So lately when I've been recording I'll always keep a DAT running in the background just in case. So often you get this great feeling on a demo and you never get it back on a record, it's part of that philosophy. I always monitor in record, I want to hear what's happening on tape. A lot of people won't know I'm recording and I'll play what they thought was a practice run and it turns out great. There's something to be said for that first take vibe. It goes both ways. I also like to produce, which involves lifting people to the magical take after relentless unsuccessful attempts. That will always take more time and you have to have a player that is willing to let you do that, to guide and refine them. "Right there when you hit that note, that was really close but if you could just dig in a bit deeper..."
Do you have an easy time relating to people on that level?
I seem to if someone lets me. I don't really enjoy the role of the engineer who sits passively by and just engineers. I'm a frustrated guitar player so I hear things in my head, I can explain things and play them on a piano, I can sort of show you, and most guitar players will say "Oh, like this?" and I'll say "Yeah, that."
That's probably why we all got into recording.
Exactly. I also think that by me being a harmonica player, because it's so limited, its taught me the 'less is more' philosophy. I do like to get nutty sometimes, as is evident in some of the recordings. There's a track on the Barbara Manning record called "Joan of Arc" that if you were to hear the basics its as gooped up as possible. It has accordion, cello, vibes, thunder drums, mandolin, you name it. We went to mix it and no one knew what to do with it. So I said "Let me have at it here for a while" so she left me alone and it was one of those rare inspired things. I just sort of set up some sub-bussing of things and literally did this sort of DJ mix of it, bringing instruments in and out. I left the drums out until the very end for the last 16 bars. I don't want to blow my own horn but its a pretty brilliant mix.
