Dave Trumfio: Interviewed by Joe Chiccarelli

When we interviewed Joe Chiccarelli for Tape Op #14 he was heading back to Chicago to finish producing the new Pulsars album for Dave Trumfio and his brother Harry. When I mentioned that we needed to interview Dave soon, Joe obliged. Dave has recorded for ages, starting as a home studio and now as a pretty darn nice place with it's own mascot to boot. He's also done some great recordings for Barbara Manning, Wilco, The Mekons, Tsunami, Butterglory, Ashtray Boy, Number One Cup, Alternative TV, Billy Bragg/Wilco, and more. -LC

At a young age you were a guitar player. What was the first band you had?

It was called the Roadhouse Blues Jammers, and it consisted of my friend Tom on violin, my brother Harry on Tupperware (filled with different amounts of water) and myself on a Harmony triple pickup guitar.

Wow was it a Rocket or something?

No it wasn't even that, it was "No Name", the triple pickup version from Sears with a Hohner amplifier.

So out of that was born the Pulsars?

Oh, no. The Pulsars came way later.

After the Larry Cash Project?

Larry Cash, after Ashtray Boy...

Ashtray Boy was another one of your bands?

Yeah.

Did any of these bands put out any CDs?

Ashtray Boy has actually put out five CDs on Ajax and Feels Good All Over Records. They're still together. I'm kind of a rotating.... I play when I have the time. I usually play keyboards.

And did you produce the CDs?

Usually it was a group effort, but...

So this was all done in your basement?

Liz Phair sang on our first record. As she was recording Exile in Guyville , she would come over after her session and sing back up. That was all started on a 1/2 inch 16 track in 1991.

This is all pre-King Size, which is your studio that you own here in beautiful downtown Wicker Park, Chicago.

Shithole.

No, no we love King Size. So before you had King Size Studios, you had the studio in your basement. What other bands did you record in your basement studio?

Mostly local hardcore bands. A band called Flesh Merchant, a band called Freedom- a couple of bands from the north shore of Chicago.

What year was this?

This was between '88 and '92. We started King Size around '92.

So around '88 was when you got into recording?

I actually got into recording pretty early, starting with the Roadhouse Blues Jammers. We would do boombox recordings and we figured, "Hey we could move instruments further away to get the mix right." So pretty early, in sixth or seventh grade, we started to dabble with boombox recording. In eighth grade I had saved up enough money to get an X15 Fostex four track. I had that for about a year, until I figured I needed something more. That's where the addiction started.

So the next move was to a 16 track?

The next move was to a Fostex 250, then to a 1/4 inch 8-track. Finally, out of high school and on my own, I went to a half inch 16-track. I stayed with that until about a year or so into King Size. All our early King Size recordings were done on a cheap 16-track Fostex.

Oh really?

And a Biamp Legend, 20 x 16 console.

Oh man, you really learned the hard way.

Well, I did work at a studio.

You worked for Seagrape Studios.

That's where the 24-track deck at King Size is from. There was an older Neotek prototype console... a really cool console. Most of the stuff recorded there was a lot of mid to late '80s house music. Frankie Knuckles did some stuff there, Ralphie Rassario and the Hot Mix Five, some Massive Attack remixes. I got my professional start assisting, and eventually becoming an engineer there, and learning a lot about electronic music at the same time. Up to then if we used any electronics it was a choir sample from a Mirage.

So was that where the birth of the Pulsars came from? From all your new interest in electronic stuff?

Well yeah...At the same time I was really getting into indie rock, like Sonic Youth and the Pixies. The kind of newer stuff coming out in the late '80s and early '90s. Slanted and Enchanted by Pavement, Sebadoh and stuff. I had that kind of DIY, lo-fi interest. But at the same time I was making the best 909 kick drum I could make for house guys. I guess my growing up, engineer wise, was done in both genres. During the day I would do house music and at night go and record (what I like to think of as) mid-fi with soul.

How did the Pulsars get their album deal? Did you do demos or independent CD first?

Well we had a seven-inch out on Sweet Pea records. Which is sort of the local indie-pop label here.

Who else is on there?

Number One Cup and a band called Hooker. It's run by the drummer from Number One Cup, and his girlfriend.

So that was the first Pulsars release. Did you produce that?

Yeah. Mike [Hagler] and I did.

That led to the album deal right?

Yeah, well we did a demo. We were actually making a record that we figured we would find somebody to release it. What became our official demo was going to be our record for Feel Good All Over, John Henderson's label. A tape of that fell into the hands of John Rubily from Atlantic Records, and that got the ball rolling. I guess the whole idea of the Pulsars, from the beginning, was to make over-the- top shameless pop music. Do whatever we want to do, and not care if it's not the hip thing to do. We thought the best place for this band would be a label that could support us in what we want to do. Experimenting and having a budget.

So at the time did you think it was something a major label would be interested in?

We kind of thought we would start a project that we could take as far as it could go. Not worrying about if it's going to fit into a label's aesthetic. We just freewheeled it and said we would do whatever we wanted to do. It just so happens we got interest from major labels. We said "What the hell?" We're not militant in our beliefs of independent versus major. There really isn't a difference for the Pulsars, because our music is so driven towards the commercial potential of it. The only difference between an indie pop label and a major label is the budget and the support they can give. Like getting played on the radio, which is what our goal is. If our record can get played on the radio, it would be a little a better than what's on the radio now.

So when you were making these demos did some of them make it to the first album?

Yeah.

So you recorded some new tunes, and re-recorded the demos or augmented them.

We pretty much augmented the demo ones. Just redoing some vocals. Once we had the deal we had a budget, so we went back and tried to recapture some of it at a higher fidelity. We bought a Pro Tools system, we bought some new mics. We had a Neotek console, and we got some preamps. We cut some stuff, but some of it couldn't recapture the moment. On "Tunnel Song" and "My Pet Robot", those are all the original electronic tracks. We just redid the drums and some of the vocals.

Mainly to get better sounds?

Yeah.

You felt that it was a major label so you wanted a hi-fi sound?

Yeah and we had the time. We actually spent two or three months dabbling and tweaking. Just because we could-that was freedom. Up until then we were on a shoestring budget. Finally, we could sit back and relax. Take a lunch break and come back and tweak the kick drum for the rest of the day. It was a wank party for us.

The difference, in your mind, between indie labels and major is being able to take a lunch break?

This summer I recorded three albums which were done in three weeks.

Anniversary.

Anniversary was the last project I worked on. Apocalypse Hoboken. A couple of local bands. I mixed Sally Timms record.

You've done other stuff with the Mekons [Sally's long-lived band]. As a producer or engineer?

Engineer. My average project is ten days. That's an album project for me. Whenever I get the chance to work on something on a major label, I jump. For instance, on the Wilco record, Mike and I did most of the overdubs, backgrounds, and stuff like that. A lot of editing. They just came in at two week intervals, every couple months for about a year. It was kind of nice — we get to leave and come back. It wasn't like we have two weeks to finish this record. That record turned out great. You could tell that a lot of time was put into that record. Just sitting back and hearing where the song is coming from and being able to have that luxury. I feel the same way with the new Pulsars record we're working on. Being able to take a break and let your ears relax. It's great.

Having that two months we took off. That objectivity is great. Parts that I thought were cool feeling, turned out not so cool..

Looking at the trees instead of the forest. There's this really pretty tree, but you missed it.

Now you've done your first album. Major label, big budget. You produced yourself, so being an artist, producer; you engineered it and mixed it?

With Mike Hagler and Ken Sluiter. My partners here at King Size.

Having to wear, to some degree, all those hats. Did you really feel a lot of pressure? Did you ever want outside help or did you feel like you needed to compete because it was a major label?

Well at that point, three years ago, the state of radio wasn't where it is right now. They were taking risks. The Rentals had a song on the radio...Weezer. They were definitely taking risks with bands. Daft Punk had an instrumental hit. So we thought the sky's the limit. We could just go and make a quirky, weird audio sonic soundscape. Not make it sound like a Steve Lillywhite [ #93 ] mix. Not to gob it up with certain name brand reverbs that sound like everything else on the radio. We just took chances, and maybe were a little heavy handed here or there. There was a pressure, though; the reality that this record would be heard by more than 5,000 indie rock fans. The main problem with producing your own record is that it's your own record. You don't have the objective ear and it's really hard to distance yourself from it. First, I couldn't listen to the record for about a year. I just recently hit that point where I could listen to it. I still get this feeling that had we an outside producer, things would have sounded different. Bob Bortnick, our A & R guy, had a lot to say on different things, which helped a lot but the day to day stuff was kind of me and my friends. Everyone thought it was cool. No one said, "No man. Stop wanking."

Give it the Frat boy speaker test.

Oh we did plenty of the Frat boy speaker tests.

The Frat boys are these humongous home speakers here at King Size. They are mounted in the back of the control room, by the couch. Kind of the living room test. If stuff passes the Frat boys you know it works.

Yeah, exactly.

So after doing the first record, was this a conscious decision on your part to say, "Hey, I want to gain some objectivity." Or, "Take some pressure off of me." To get a producer. Or was this pressure from the A & R guy, manager, or...

No. It was a combination of a lot of things. There wasn't any pressure from the label. Other than saying, "Hey, why don't you try something different this time around." Pretty much from the day I finished our first record I was thinking about an outside producer/engineer. Someone who could bring something fresh to what we are doing, and doesn't see us on a day to day basis. Someone who is totally fresh. Working with someone I respect, admire and can learn from too. Like you Joe.

Ah, thanks.

Wait! You are working on the record!

The producer interviewing the artist on how he feels to be produced.

No it's cool. I'm learning so much from this experience. Usually I'm the guy who is engineering and producing someone else. I've never been in this position, so I'm learning a lot.

What about the awkwardness of it? What about the moments you're thinking to yourself, "Hey if I were doing it, I would do something different."

I've been doing this since '87, '88 — I'm way past that. I'm at the point now where I had my chance and I did my first record. I'm totally open-minded to whatever. I like sitting on the couch or leaving and going into the lounge and then coming back to hear something totally fresh. If I didn't trust you, I would constantly be jumping at the board. Turning knobs. It would've ended after a week.

So one thing that this has brought you is bringing in a producer that has some objectivity, but it also allows you some ear breaks to gain objectivity on your own record.

It's great to be able to sit back and take the dog for a walk or just leave for an hour while you're working. I feel more like an artist. Instead of the first record which was this big ball of...

Chemical reaction.

Yeah, of Dave Trumfio doing everything and calling the shots. Bossing around his friends on the Pro Tools system. 

Let's talk about your Pro Tools. This album is maybe the most Pro Tools intensive album that I've done. Usually my involvement with computers and stuff is always for edits and little fix-its here. Now it seems there's more Pro Tools. Instead of locking up a second multi track, we're going to keep it all in Pro Tools and mix in Pro Tools.

Yeah.

You started in analog. You have the 24 track. Are more of your projects, not only Pulsars, but the punk bands (and what I would think would be analog indie pop music) using Pro Tools on that?

Yeah. Actually all the records I worked on this summer it was kind of half-and-half. Apocalypse Hoboken was all analog. I left three tracks for vocals after we did all the instruments, and they are a little more stripped down. I guess the most recent records that I've worked on, like Floraline for Minty Fresh records, was done completely on Pro Tools. There were some previously recorded tracks that we put into Pro Tools, but pretty much everything we did from scratch...

All the drum tracks and everything.

Completely in Pro Tools.

Do you ever miss the sound of analog, for your drums and bass?

They were going for more of a synthetic sound. We used real high hats, but we triggered kicks and snares a lot. We used a trigger kick with a snare and maybe synth high hat. That project we did all in Pro Tools and anything we needed to get analog warmth out of we ran through a Tube Tech "Pultec" knockoff. Or ran it out through a [Roland] Space Echo. Just ran it out through an amp and mic'd it. Just to dirty it up a little. The Anniversary record is pretty much the same that we are doing for the Pulsars. We cut all the basic tracks, rhythm section, most of the guitars...

What do they sound like?

They're a mix between say Superchunk meets Human League [ ??!!-LC ]. We cut the tracks on the analog deck and then I did submixes into Pro Tools. We did all the keyboards, vocals and auxiliary percussion.

Like a stereo sub mix to Pro Tools and overdubbed everything on top of that.

Yeah. We just worked in the Pro Tools for the overdubs. Once we were done with the overdubs, we locked it back up to the 24 so it was half and half. Then we mixed it down.

So you got the original punch and everything.

That way we didn't wear out the 24 track and it allowed me to use two or three mics on guitar amps. Their basic guitar was half stacks. So I was able to get a little crazy with that stuff. Any kind of extra overdubs we did were in Pro Tools. Even some guitars and what not.

When things are dumped into digital, the fatness and glue that you get in analog is just always missing. Having the Apogee AD8000 (analog to digital converter) really helps. It rocks; it just sounds so good.

We started with an 882 and a 16-bit version 3. That's what we did the Pulsars record on.

Oh yeah?

That was the same way. We would lock it up to the 24 track. The last record was hybrid. Synced up to Pro Tools, we actually threw a lot of stuff back to tape. We never left the 24 track analog. We never locked up two machines because we only had one machine. I totally agree that you want that warmth. There's something about drums playing off a two-inch tape.

It's just kind of real, the air between the notes. It just doesn't feel like a bunch of samples.

Some of the other stuff I've been doing is submixing the drums into the ProTools. Mixing the bass using mic or DI, kind of getting your blend and putting it in there.

Just like how you would make an analog slave tape.

Right, right. That seems to work cool too. Sometimes if you want to spice something up, lock it back up and bring in the original snare drums underneath it. Get creative with it. I think it's really cool, the new technology out there. Especially now with the 24 bit.

The 24 bit makes a big difference.

And the AD8000. I mean it sounds pretty. It does sound a little bit different when you put it back, but it does with analog as well. Apples and oranges.

What's your favorite new piece of gear that's not too expensive? What's your find; your discovery.

I guess my favorite thing is the Master Room spring reverb we have, which has an EQ right on the front of it. You can EQ the reverb and get some amazing sounds out of it. Sometimes I just run a mono signal in and a mono signal out. I'll pan the reverb off of where it is. To broaden the sound and give this really weird Link Wray kind of depth to it.

We used it, the 505, on a couple of things where we've printed mono reverb. It sounds really good; I really like that box.

It's cool. A really cool cheap reverb, if you can find them, is the very first version of the Alesis Microverb. I'm not a huge fan of Alesis in general, but the first version. Microverb I, the little kind of third space rack — there's some really great settings on there.

I like their Midiverb II, but I don't know if I've heard the early Microverbs.

If you can find them. The newer ones, like the Nanoverbs, they just don't have the same... I guess maybe it's a little darker 'cause it's 12 bit. They always have an old-fashioned reverb sound, believe it or not.

I'm all into that bucket brigade stuff and all that early digital stuff that didn't have as much fizzly top end. In a mix, that stuff always sounds competitive...

Like with Alesis, the Quadraverb always had that really fake top end. I'll tell people that the Microverb is good and they don't believe because of the Alesis name. They've usually dealt with the Quadraverb, which is a totally different animal. I guess the Effectron's...

I love those. I finally found one for myself, but I love those 1024's.

They have a built in limiter. So you can hit it and it will limit it. It's cool for room sounds. Getting a clashier sound.

Just a warm...

It compresses it.

Exactly.

So we use those a lot on our room mics. To widen the room out, depending on the tempo of the song.

I'm really curious where the future of music recording, and music recording studios is going. Do you think that it's going to be those few upper echelon rooms, with the SSL mind caves for Celine Dion and Aerosmith and all the big budget projects, while everything else is going to be done by individual producers based at home with the Pro Tools? Will King Size fit in to all this? Where do you see the future of King Size and studios?

I'm always asking that question. My roots were in the basement and I still have a nice home set-up that I record at home on. As far as the really big top rooms, I'm sad to hear that a classic studio like A&M is going out of business. If anything, I'm all for home recording and King Size is more or less a down and dirty project studio. But we still get guys who work at home. Archer Prewitt, he'll come here and he'll track drums. I'm doing a Jenny Toomey record this fall with Archer and they are going to come here and do basic tracks, then put them into Pro Tools and then they can take them home. A lot of people have project Pro Tools systems now at home. They can go over to Archer's and they can work on it. I think that's kind of the future for home versus studio recording. Accessing better microphones, maybe a room that's sound proof. For instance, in Chicago, it's mostly project studios and the studios that are the big SSL rooms, like Chicago Tracks, CRC. They're usually R. Kelly or commercials- maybe a band coming through town once in a while. I think this city is only able to support two of those studios if you really think about it. As far as the medium studios go (which King Size has graduated into that league, with our equipment) you have to have a hook, you have to have a draw for your studio. You have to have either the good people working the equipment or a room that's totally original.

Like with Albini's [ #10 ] room [Electrical Audio]. You walk in and you know the room is going to have a great character.

That's a great example. Say I want to get a good room for strings or horns, Albini would be my first choice.

Totally. I would work in that place in a minute. I think it's awesome.

If I wanted a really smaller, kind of rock room, there's Albini's and our room . Then I would say, "Hey lets do vocals and programming at home." Even as an owner of a studio, there are certain projects I'll work on where the budget is not there. I'll say "Hey, let's spend three days at King Size. A week at my house, and another four days mixing at King Size." We've worked it so we have ADATs, DA-88s, Pro Tools and Cu-Base. We're able to support all the different formats, so that's really important for a medium-sized studios, especially big studios too. That they can take any format and mix or transfer it or whatever. We got to keep up on what people are using at home so you can help the people at home. It's not like it's an "us and them" mentality; it shouldn't be. You'll go out of business in two seconds if that's your attitude.

As an artist producing yourself, maybe one of the hardest things...

You drive yourself crazy?

Yeah well you usually drive yourself crazy. One of the hardest things, I would think, would be producing your own vocals. Like how do you know how far to push yourself, how do you know how to comp your own vocals?

I think the demos aren't, pitch-wise, perfect.

But the vibe is great.

The vibe is there because I usually end up going for my character rather than pitch.

So on the last album and the demos, did you comp your own vocals?

Well Mike actually helped out on that. He has a good ear for pitch. So I kind of left it up to Mike or Ken. At the same time, I was sitting on the couch for every edit and I more or less said, "Hey, I like the gravel in my voice." It goes back to the whole producing yourself argument. If you have your own home studio, and you're putting this out yourself or you're putting it out on an independent label, you can invite friends over, play the tape for people and get feedback that way, if you're producing yourself. It's just great to have this set-up in an official form. You're going to produce the vocals, let somebody else call the shots. It's great when you can spend two years recording your record at home. But when they say, "We want this to come out in five months." I definitely prefer this way. It just goes back to trusting who you are working with to call the shots. There are a lot of bands that I work with where maybe one of the other members likes to work with the singer on pitch and stuff like that.

I find that's true; that's the case.

Maybe they four tracked it together.

Feedback.

That's always nice. Especially working on a budget, you have ten days to make a record. It's always good to find the strengths within the band. How they did their demos. Now I usually ask a lot of questions, "Oh, what kind of recordings have you've done before? What works?" I ask a lot of questions, and you'll find that the band's usually got their stuff together. If you're a musician you should know about the basic stuff. Everybody should at least have a four track and understand the idea of punching in and comping.

I find that if you compare recording to ten years ago, it's way easier making records because there's less mystery. Everybody knows the lingo, everybody knows the process. Most people have the experience that they know the difference between the sound of a [AKG]414 and [Neumann U]87. There's so much common ground that it makes life way easier. There isn't like this voodoo thing and there isn't this element of distrust.

Well, you have a computer now so that if someone messes up you can just fix it. That's the scary thing.

Do you find that you are relying on the technology more? What would happen if the computers went down and you had to make this record totally analog?

Well, the important thing is how it sounds to you afterwards. If you go through and you cut every syllable of a word, or if you autotune... you have to use those things sparingly. You can tell, and I think that's really obvious when a person gives a good performance, versus when somebody is leaning on the technology. You can weed through the bullshit. You can make it sound technically right, but there is going to be a lack of soul. That's the good thing, there's always going to be soul and you can tell when it's not there. Not that the Pulsars are a real soul band. Sometimes our soul is going for no soul, but in a very soulful way. That's our goal.

Producing this record is hard for me, because I always find I have to walk this line between the stuff being quirky and clever, but being urgent and passionate and soulful.

Where someone who doesn't know about music too much, or just enjoys listening to music can say, "Oh this is nice to listen to." You're making music for people to listen to; not making music for engineers and producers who can dissect your album and know every trick you pulled in the recording of it.

You mixed the last Pulsars album here at King Size on the Neotek with automation?

Yeah, the Audiomate. Actually our board is the first board shipped to leave Neotek, before Neotek folded, with automation.

I like the way this console sounds. For an inexpensive console I think it sounds really, really good, especially when you do that master fader by-pass that you do. That really puts the punch back in there. What I love about Pro Tools is the effects that you would spend $200 an hour in a mixing studio...

Like the phase toms.

All that weird backwards stuff. I know that if I had to stop in the middle of mixing and work out all that, it would drive me crazy. But that was the one great thing about having Pro Tools and the plug-ins. We are premixing the whole album, which I love.

That's what we did with the Wilco record too. A lot of those two-week sessions were spent premixing background vocals and shifting things around. That would normally be done at $200 an hour.

With a zillion tracks to choose from.

What I do like is that when we do get into the mix stage, we are going to pull up faders and say, "Let's get this to sound really good. We got all the elements, let's just blend it all and EQ."