How many albums have you produced for other people?
Twenty, I've only done it for other people's music in the last five years. I engineered for some other stuff before that, but I've only been hired since about '94.
Producer/engineers tend to approach recording from two different camps. The predominant one is the technical; i.e. "If we can just get the right mics for the drums and the best gear then we'll make the perfect record." The other camp focuses more on the environment... techniques that create a space that's comfortable with an emphasis on collaboration and performance. I'm curious what percent of your approach is technically focused and what is environmentally focused.
I'd say it's half-and-half. I'm very conscious of environment and I'm always working to make it better. By that I mean, either purposefully making it comfortable or uncomfortable to the point of tricking musicians into doing stuff that they actually want. Sometimes it's technical tricks, like someone could be singing, and I can sense that they are right at the point where their voice will break. If I think they can get the pitch, then maybe I'll change the pitch of the tape a hair, without telling them. They won't sense it but then they will be able to sing it. So instead of constantly telling them, "Oh you're singing flat. Oh you're singing sharp," when it's only a hair off, I change the tape speed. Or like with the last Stereolab record, there was this one tune that both Sean O'Hagan (from the High Llamas who was also doing work on the record) and I knew really needed some kind of ridiculous "hot" guitar lead. Well, Tim Gaine(the guitarist) is just not into stuff like that. Over the course of the first two months of tracking I would constantly be playing hot licks while we were working. And Tim was always like, "Stop that! Oh No!" You know... it was very funny. Eventually, bit by bit, over time, his hands started fidgeting and after about six weeks he started doing it himself. By then it was time for him to go in and track it. So it's just little psychological things to get people to do stuff that... not trying to force them to do things that they wouldn't do...but getting them to do what they want to do. On the Superchunk record, with Mac(McCaughan) and his vocals, I was working with him, actually in a way he said he hadn't done before, where we actually went over the lyrics and talked about different ways they could be interpreted through the vocal performance. We talked about what combination of voices the songs might need? Does it need harmonies here? Should we lay off the harmonies here? My favorite example (of this) was Mary from Stereolab. She had a song on the last record where she really had to sing out because the character was supposed to be this bigot. So she's singing it like she usually sings her back-up vocals. I thought that she really needed to step-up to this. She wouldn't do it. So I ran into the live room with a stick and chased her out into the street and then back into the room and immediately pushed record. When she sang the part again she was out of breath... she sang differently and it worked. So it can be anything really that works.
Did you have to do that with the Aluminum Group at all? They seem like they talk about music in that way.
We talked a lot about the implications about the way things would be done, mostly with the interpretation of the lyrics and how the performance would color the lyrics. But I tend to talk to bands about the lyrics a lot. It seems normal to some of them and for others it seems like they've never done that before...well, with engineers. But then most engineers don't seem too interested in the interpretation of the lyrics. That's up to the singer, there's a history of singers being more difficult to record than other instruments because it's more of a personal thing than playing an instrument. Most engineers shy away from that whole area.
Mac: We would have to push him to do weird things, but once we got him to do it he would get really excited about it. "Yeah, come on, fuck up the drum sound." When you pushed him he would get really into it, but I get a sense that he's a bit worried about being known as the guy who makes everything weird. Maybe that's why we had to tell him to make things sound like (for example) they weren't a guitar, like on "Pulled Muscle." I think that might be why he wasn't saying, "Yeah let's put this guitar through the synthesizer."
I think that in the whole rock realm that's a bit taboo. Either because you're not supposed to care too much about lyrics, or because it's just the vessel for this angst filled, human, catharsis. Who would dare to go in and attempt to sculpt the raw emotion? Whereas, in pop music, it's just the opposite, it's all about sculpting the catharsis.
Well, I approach everything as if it was pop music.
I can hear that.
I like pop music more, although I like rock as well. In general I don't think I've ever worked with a rock band except US Maple. But even there, interpretation of the lyrics was very important because Al has a very specific set of guidelines for the way he sings. He's worked very hard at developing the way he sings. I know him pretty well, because I've known the band since the first time they played. Luckily, I was able to understand what he was trying to do. But even in that case we worked a lot on the vocals.
We're really flying through all the questions...It's good.
I'm sorry if I'm talking too much.
Yeah, I'm interviewing you and you're talking too much. Can you stick to just yes and no answers? Think like Bill Callahan. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between the Superchunk & Aluminum Group sessions?
Did you talk with Superchunk?
Yes.
Do they hate me?
No, they seemed really happy with you. I mean they teased you, definitely.
Did they?
For being over extended. For working so much and sleeping so little...for being sleepy.
I'm always sleepy, that's how I don't sleep.
From listening to the records I assumed two different processes for the sessions. I assumed that Superchunk came into the studio with skeleton pop/rock songs and they said "We want strings or horns on these parts" and you wrote those parts. I assumed that The Aluminum Group came in with arranged songs and that you collaborated with them to come up with more parts. Although both bands when interviewed seemed to say the same thing. They both said, "We came with our songs and he helped us to do some things but for the most part they were our songs and our ideas."
Yeah, sure.
I was thinking that the Aluminum Group was much more of collaboration, and Superchunk was more about selective collaboration. "We need a part for this chorus here." "Make this string part and put it in here." Etc. Because that's how the records sound.
With Superchunk they had never really tried anything like this before so in some ways they were unfamiliar with what it takes to make a record like that, and they wanted to do a two- week record in a week. I mean, you start bringing strings and horns, which aren't something that you just throw on. So in that case, of course I wasn't sleeping because I was home at night and I'd be writing the arrangements. The Aluminum Group was much more familiar with what goes into making a(arranged) record like this because as a band they do it already. That said, with the Aluminum Group, pretty much all of the arrangements changed in the studio.
They said that it changed a lot in the mix.
They're were also new parts. They had me replace almost all of the piano.
And the drums?
The drums were replaced. A lot of the new parts came from the original part on tape, triggering this stuff (Jim gestures at a wall of effects) and that's actually what was used. On that record the arrangements changed an awful lot. The keyboard player did the strings, and I brought in some people to play the horns and I wrote stuff for that. It was always collaboration. Over the course of the record all the songs changed from the basics. The basics were actually full performances with most of the arrangements in there. Sometimes the keyboard equivalent sound would be replaced by another instrument. In general, all the arrangements were there in the beginning but by the end it was very different.
I noticed that there is a lot of play between acoustic and electronic sounds in your mixes. For example, the AG's "Two Bit Faux Construction" begins with acoustic drums and ends with electric drums. It's almost like Paul McCartney's work where he uses his voice to bridge two completely different song environments.
I think that that's one thing that we really agreed on. One song doesn't have to be this group of chord changes. It can be what someone else might split into 3 or 4 other songs. In general, I don't want the complexity to clunk people over the head. It's there for people to find it. I don't want to foreground songs with the complexity of the arrangement but in general the stuff I do is fairly complex.
I noticed that you'd have two separate songs in one song and by the end you'd collapsed the parts together.
Some of my favorite pop music is McCartney & Sparks. That's really what The Aluminum Group are about construction-wise. When we'd get to the arrangements we were usually on the same page about, why this melody should move from this instrument to that instrument. I would always push it because I really like it.
I like it too. There's a lot of 70s Wings stuff happening.
Oh yeah.
So let's talk tech. Tell me some of the technical choices you made in the different sessions and tell me why...
Oh boy, I don't know where to start. In general, I'm very picky about what mics I use and I spend a lot of time with the placement. (See recipe) I set them up, I hear them and if they aren't right, I change them...because you know each instrument...snare drums... will be different. With the Superchunk record I spent a lot of time changing mics. Especially when it came to the bass. Laura's bass has no bottom to it. It's all mid. That was a little frustrating because, of course, they wanted bottom. I had to use what was coming out of the speaker...so I spent a lot of time trying to get a bass sound that fulfilled what they wanted. I'm still not sure that I did. I think I maybe should have changed the cabinet, but it was her cabinet. I tend to spend a lot of time on all technical aspects. I generally don't use anything digital in mixing unless it's overtly digital. I like using ProTools; I have no problem with that, but for mixing and such, I don't use any reverbs. I don't think I used any reverbs at all on the Superchunk record. I mean if they need it, I'll only use a spring or tape delay instead of using digital reverbs or something like that.
