James, you initially sat in with the band at the Winter Jazz Fest here in New York, and that led to you featuring them on "Fear Not" from your ANTI- records debut Eye of I.
JBL: We recorded that with Shahzad Ismaily [Tape Op #151] at his Figure 8 Studio in Brooklyn. I've known Anthony for a decade now, and we've collaborated with William Hooker and various ensembles. That was my entry to meeting Brendan and Joe, which led to us playing together at Winter Jazz 2019. So, I've some skin in the game. [laughs] ANTI- had asked me if I was interested in doing a song with anyone, and I thought about these cats. I love the energy that Joe and Brendan play with, and Anthony and I have developed such a rapport. Our sounds just fit with each other. I'm old school; if the bassist and drummer get along, it's about to be a good band!
The new album features so many cool unison "heads" between the sax and guitar. Were those worked out ahead of time with you and Anthony in New York?
JBL: We all got together and had ideas for the record. I'm from Buffalo but I went to Howard University, and a lot of my family relocated to the DC area. It was all worked out collectively, in a really beautiful way. I haven't been in too many situations where it came together so naturally.
Where in DC were you working on the new material?
BC: We get together twice a week in our practice space in Petworth to write, but we only record it to the phone. It's so primitive and weirdly liberating to do it that way, and we just pile on ideas. It ends up being way more old school, how we used to do our writing before entering the studio. Nobody had any money, so we just pushed the record; and a day and half later we had a record. That's exactly how this went down. Don Godwin did a great job of getting everything set up and being fluid, to the point where I did not even have to think about it. There was plenty of room with the guitarist in one iso booth and James having an entire room to play in. He had an [Electro-Voice] RE20 on the sax but also room mics, and the tone sounds like you're in the room with him. Don was getting great sounds and we just wanted it to remain natural. Everyone was having a great time and playing their asses off because we could hear each other so well. It was a great couple of days of recording, and then… that's the record, straight up! We protected that vibe, even through the mastering, the lathe cutting, and everything.
Can you go into detail on your drum recording setup? Do you still have the farm bell?
BC: Well yes, of course; I am nothing without that bell! [laughter] I took a total backseat for the drum setup. I trusted Don, since we had recorded so many projects together during Covid. I played on six or seven things for him, including Mike Watt and Fake Names. He's a great communicator, and his recordings are always top-notch. For the first time in a long time I could say, "Look, I'm the fuckin' drummer in this band. That's my role."
I saw footage of you all playing the Black Cat in DC prior to recording. That rapturous response must have helped before going into this studio.
JBL: I always have fun when we play the Black Cat and see the things that Brendan and Joe have cultivated in that scene. It's a different audience and vibe than I'm used to, but because of the energy it didn't feel foreign to me. Whether you play in Spain, Italy, or Poland, it's the same kind of energy and it's inspiring.
Anthony, previously Brendan and Joe were in a band with Ian MacKaye, who plugged straight from his Gibson SG into a Marshall. Now they've got you and your enormous pedalboard covered in fun toys. Your solo on "That Thang" has some wild pitch shifting. I'd love to hear a "rig rundown."
AP: Ever since I started playing, I've been interested in the sounds a guitar is capable of making, and that's going back to Jimi Hendrix. Especially his intro pieces that are based on almost noise. My chain for this album starts with a Zonk Machine fuzz by Collector Effector, which is pretty intense on its own, but it blends well with the saxophone. The fuzz goes into a Digitech Whammy, then into a Classic Amplification CV-2 Uni-Vibe clone which I use for the pulsing vibrato setting. Then I go into a Lehle volume pedal, which is powered so it doesn't suck the tone. Then I go into a Greer Lightspeed Overdrive into a JAM Rattler LTD, which is a RAT clone made in Greece. Then I go into a um… [exhales]
Another overdrive, I'm guessing?
BC: Anthony, you're doing really well, by the way.
JBL: Keep going; you're amazing!
AP: Oh! Then I go into the Red Panda Tensor [time warp pedal]. That's for that spinning, glitching, arpeggiating sound on "That Thang." Henry Kaiser turned me onto that one. Then I go into a JAM Delay Llama and a Strymon Flint for reverb and harmonic tremolo. Sometimes I use that in tandem with the Uni-Vibe to get multiple modulations. I was using a brown Fender Princeton and a Benson Monarch for amps. I played my Abernethy Sonic Empress guitar for the whole album, and a BlueChip TP50 pick, which is beveled in a way to cut out the harsh attack.
Joe, this material is obviously not Fugazi, but do you feel that familiarity in the rhythm section with Brendan? "Emergence" has a bit of that "Waiting Room" stutter groove.
JL: We're just doing what the song calls for. Anthony actually brought in the idea for "Emergence," and we do what we do when we lock in and deliver. It's always about what the song is asking for, and then we just find our place in it. Sometimes things are super complicated and then we reduce it to the common denominator. We realized things don't need to be written to death. Instead, we need to set up something musically that leaves room for James and Anthony to speak. You don't have to create a maze to make it interesting.
This album also hits on some more expanded harmonies. A bit of a post rock influence?
BC: I think what you're hearing is the dialogue between James and Anthony, with Joe and I making a foundation for that space. Those two are communicating musically in a way that I've never experienced. If you want to liken it to Fugazi, Ian and Guy [Picciotto, Tape Op #12] would write guitar parts with each other in mind, and there was a lot of improvisation when we played live. James and Anthony are incredible players who bring their entire personality to the moment when we're playing. It's a real dialogue, and a beautiful thing that I'm lucky to be a part of.
