Hillary first came to Tape Op's attention when she e-mailed us, from New York, with some hot "snapple-micing" tips (see the letters in issue #3). I was impressed with her rockin' producer/engineer rÈsumÈ which included the Ramones, the Godrays, Murphy's Law, Tribe 8, L.E.S. Stitches, Spook Engine, and more. We managed to meet up face-to-face for an interview at the palatial Tape Op digs while she was in Portland visiting for the holidays.
So how did you get started in recording? Were you in a band?
I've never played music. I've always just listened to music. When I was in grade school I wanted to take up trombone lessons and the teacher said, "Your arms aren't long enough." I know now that it's more like, "Your a girl, you can't do that." I was kinda discouraged. I just loved music and when I was in college I was studying communications and I took a sound production class, like razor editing and that kinda stuff, and I read chapter one of the book about what a producer is and I thought, "This is what I want to do."
Did you study all that stuff at school?
Not in college. I got a degree which was more production orientated and I did a lot of video. After I graduated college I took a short 8 week basic course on the theory of recording. It wasn't even that technical. It was more like there are these steps in recording and this is how it's done. I was living in Maryland and I got a chance to run a studio in New York, turn it into a business, and learn engineering at the same time. I just jumped at it 'cause I wasn't doing anything exciting in Maryland.
How did you end up with the chance to do this?
Friends of mine had recorded at the studio [Spa], where I'm working now, and the guy who was the assistant engineer at the time ended up clicking with the band and they needed a soundman--so they took him. The studio owner, who was friends with the band's manager, said, "If you take him you need to give me somebody." The manager knew that I wanted to get into recording and said, "Well, go up for six weeks." It ended up being more than six weeks.
How long have you been there now?
Three and a half years. After I was there for six months I started engineering--just small bands. The studio is a small 24 track; a midsize studio for Manhattan. It's pretty much a word-of-mouth kind of place. I was doing real assisting--answering phones, making coffee, emptying the trash and also setting up mics; all the stuff an assistant does
At the same time I was running the studio: learning about where to buy equipment, if something breaks--who to call.
So they gradually eased you in to recording.
It was just me and the owner and one engineer but he wasn't involved in the business aspect. I pretty much taught myself all the aspects of the business of recording.
What was the first session you recorded?
A lot of the times there's a crossover, when you're still assisting, of when you're assisting and when you're actually engineering. "You want me to get the sound? I'm just the assistant." It might have actually been D-Generation. They just came in to do one song for a demo. They're a big, New York based rock band. They opened for Kiss! I pretty much just started engineering--not really working with a separate producer but working with the band, just giving them suggestions--not even really co-producing. I just worked with a lot of New York local bands that I liked. "Come in and record. I'll get you a good rate on the studio and I'll do it for free."
You were coaxing people that you knew or had seen.
A lot of the bands hadn't recorded before; or if they had it was just 4 track stuff. I thought, "This will be great for them. They'd be able to learn what all these other bands are doing out there." It was a way for me to get more experience doing it. We'd go in, off-hours, late at night or in between two lockout sessions or something.
For cheap.
Has the studio always had a 24 track there? I assume it's a 2" Studer.
Yeah. We also have an 8 track digital (Roland DM-80).
Hard drive?
Yeah, the Spook Engine record was done on that. An experiment on how to make 8 tracks work. A couple of songs were done on the multitrack and then were bounced.
Was that a neat experience?
That was a very long process. That record took 3 or 4 months to make. I'm used to doing a 4 song demo of a band in two days. It might sound like a long time to some people who think, "We can just go to the studio and record and be done in four hours."
They're usually kidding themselves. You did some stuff with the Ramones?
Daniel Rey is the producer. He's done the Ramones' records for the past zillion years and he produced the last Murphy's Law record. I think he first came to the studio to do a couple of 7" singles with Murphy's Law. He usually just uses the engineer at the studio where he is working. So I worked with him and he liked the studio and he liked working with me. We did the Murphy's Law record, which is supposed to be the big comeback record, and then he came back and we did some stuff with the Ramones. We did one song for one record that was a live compilation record but there was a couple of studio tracks. Then we did basic tracks for a Dee Dee Ramone record that I think still has to be mixed, I'm not sure. I like working with Daniel. He's a great producer. He gets the band in such a good mood.
Do you feel like you learn a lot, watching someone like that working?
I learn a lot, production wise. I get more confidence engineering wise 'cause he's the kind of producer who'll be out in the lounge or the hallway when you're getting sounds. He'll come in and say, "Great, cool." The same with mixing. He'll say, "Okay, do your thing" and he'll leave.
Was there a period where you didn't feel quite knowledgeable about recording?
I always thought, "I'm never gonna figure out this EQ thing." I actually spend a lot of time now teaching friends of mine the basics of recording. It's a lot of females--a lot of girlfriends will come and say, "I'm interested in this. Can you teach me?" It's something you'll learn; you'll figure it out. Every day I still learn from people. A band will come in and they might have their own producer. There's two assistant engineers that work for me and if neither of them are available then I'll assist. I'll be able to step back--it's really hard though--and see how someone else is doing this a little different. I pretty much learned from just two or three people. The first studio I went to, outside of Spa, was when I did the Godrays' demo. We went to a 16 track studio. That was a great experience 'cause I didn't have to worry about answering the phone or if somebody was gonna call about scheduling.
Did you find that you were pretty familiar with everything there too?
Oh yeah. It was actually good 'cause there's a lot of things that I found I took for granted. I knew which buttons had to be pushed but I wasn't really reading that this was doing this. Maybe on a gate, I knew if I turned it to 10 O' clock it would give me that specific effect. If they had different gates at this other studio I would actually have to think about it.
It might even help you rethink what you were doing back at Spa. There's not very many women doing engineering. Did you ever encounter anything weird about that?
I always knew that most engineers were men. When I was taking the short recording class there were a couple of girls in there that seemed to be technically orientated and that just gave me confidence. When I started working at the studio there weren't any other female engineers but I didn't get any slack for it. It was never like, "Oh, you're an engineer?" I think that never was an issue. I worked with this artist once who said, "I think you're really great and do a great job." She would be interviewed in a magazine and she would say, "Hillary's the best female producer..." Don't do that! I don't want to get pigeonholed! I do what I do... it doesn't really matter that I'm a girl.
It shouldn't be a matter of consideration.
There was a point where I thought, "There's a lot of female artists out there that are afraid to get their songs out there." I wanted to get them all. I wanted to work with all these female bands. Then I was like, "Who am I kidding?" There's guy bands that are just as good that have just as much potential that I would want to work with. It was just a stupid thing to think.
But on the other hand it's good for people to see a female working as an engineer/producer.
When I first started engineering, with pretty much every band (whether they were male or female) somebody would say to me, "How did you get into this?" It got to the point where I got tired of telling the story. Now, the bands that come to work with me have come from word-of-mouth. It's not even an issue anymore.
Do you find that word-of-mouth works well?
When I first started running the studio we took out an ad in the Village Voice. It was a really dumb ad. We didn't have a clientele; we didn't have anything. We just got the worst calls. I didn't know. We got ripped off and stuff. But now we're advertising--we have a clientele--I have a clientele.
Was it pretty new when you first started working there?
Well, physically it was 2 1/2 years old but it wasn't a business; it was just a hobby studio.
So you kind of took it from there...
The owner and I are kind of like partners; even though he's definitely the owner. He's trying to get involved more, now, in the business aspect of it. I understand the whole point of the studio--which is important. It's weird, 'cause a lot of times bands will come in and I'll want to work with them and they'll have their own engineer. "No! Work with me!"
Do they bring them in for a certain reason?
Usually when that happens the engineer's also the producer. It's a combo deal. They've either worked with them before or they're trying this person out. That's happened a few times. At least I get to see the qualities they're looking for in a producer or an engineer. I get a feel for other kind of people that are out there. There's some mean people out there.
What?
I've come across a couple of producers that treat singers really badly, without realizing it. They don't give them any confidence and end up getting a really bad take and don't know why. I've come across producers that are just the opposite that are just like cheerleaders and they keep the people happy and they get a really good take. They're not really worried about the technical aspects.
What do you think causes a producer to treat the musicians that badly?
Arrogance. They get to a point where they think, "They're listening to me." They get a little cocky, "I know what I'm talking about."
What things help to make a comfortable session?
Usually the people I work with I like as people. I try and make them feel comfortable as people. And make sure and tell them what we're gonna do ahead of time. Get them involved. If they haven't recorded expalin how it works. If they have, and I'm just hired help, I might ask the singer, "What kind of mics have you used before?" Just get them involved in the whole process. We have a carpet in the studio that, if it's rolled up, the room's live. That's the first thing I say. "What are you looking for?" I'll ask the drummer. Than I'll ask the band what they're looking for. Just so I know how to mic everything. Then, get the sounds, put it on tape, and have them come in and listen. It's important that everything on tape is really close to what they want. Thay'll be, "Don't worry about that; We'll fix it in the mix." I don't like that! You never know who's gonna be mixing it.
Have you had that happen?
I've had to mix stuff that other people recorded and usually you end up crticizing something. You're like, "What did they...?" I feel so bad...
Someone could be doing that to you.
Or it could be on purpose. That could've been the intention. You just don't know. On the Tribe 8 record I did mixes, we were kinda rushed, as usual, and then Jello Biafra (who runs Alternative Tentacles, the label they are on) was like, "I don't like the mixes; Let's remix." The band was wanting to actually record some more stuff and they couldn't get back to New York since they live in San Francisco. They just had to do everything in San Francisco with the guy they had been doing their last couple of records with. Everything sounds fine; it's just kind of like an insult. I know it's not intentional but...
Did it mess up your relationship with the band?
It was an insult at first but it shouldn't have been. It was only in my mind. I knew why and the guitar player was always calling me, "We're really sorry--we don't have the money. We really like working with you and we want to do it again. We're here and you're there."
Did you check out the record?
Oh yeah. It was pretty close to what was there on tape. They also recorded a lot of newer songs, which I think made the record, overall, a good record. I really wanted them to go further 'cause at that point the press was really picking up on them. I was like, "What do you guys want to do? Do you want to go out and be L7 or do you want to have the reputation you have now and do it more?" They didn't know. I also like having other people mix my stuff 'cause then I can step back.
So when you record you're trying to have the best sounds you can on every track?
Not neccesarily. I'm a person who really likes clarity. I hate muddiness. That's just me being anal retentive. I like everything to be "correct" I guess. If you're gonna mess with the sound or make it perfectly distorted--do it in the mix, unless that's part of the sound and you know for sure, 100%. I hate trying to get rid of hum from a direct bass sound or something, after the fact. I want to get rid of it now.
What would you like to do with your future in recording?
[Sarcastically] Be a millionaire, of course. Make one record a year...
Are you pretty comfortable working at Spa?
Yeah. I'm a stress freak. I like being busy all the time. I like helping people learn stuff about recording because it's such a stupid thing. I have friends that are doctors and they're saving people's lives--I'm just making records. With a band, I like teaching them about recording and I like helping tham make a good record. Or like people who want to learn recording--I like helping them learn because it's out there and it's fun. I kind of like where I am now. I defintely don't want to run a studio but that's where I am now and that's fine. The studio that I'm running is a good place. I guess just working with a lot of new bands--developing them.
You were saying, when we talked on the phone, that you'd been doing a lot of punkier/hard edged stuff and you felt like you were getting pigeonholed as a producer who did that kind of stuff.
I guess sometimes, in just engineering, I've been getting a lot of work from people that come in and kinda want a co-producer, and it tends to be a word-of-mouth thing... it's a lot of the New York hardcore and punk bands. Which, I love it, but I like everything equally so I tend to go out and see bands and I'll find somebody I like and try and develop an artist that way. I wouldn't necessarily go up to a punk band, that I liked, and say, "Do you wanna record?" I don't think that it's commonplace to ask a band like that. It's not like you're trying to develop them. With the harder stuff that I've been doing, either co-producing or producing, it's more like just getting a really good take, capture the energy, of that band.
You don't go changing songs around...
That's them, they know what they want. I might suggest to double a guitar or something like that. I wish I could do more experimental stuff because I'm really into that.
What kind of stuff?
Like Neubaten. Not necessarily noise experimentation but just techniques of recording. Not like a band that's, "I want the drums to sound like Metallica." You know, a band that wants to come in and play around. The Godrays were really fun to work with. We ended up recording background vocals on hand-held U87's. They ended up doing it on the record too.
Did you work with them on their record too?
No. Well, I played tambourine on one track.
You said you're not a musician.
I'm a percussionist! Egg shaker and tambourine.
Who did their record?
Adam Lasus. He's a super nice guy and he's the kind of person who gets the band in the right state of mind.
How come they didn't do the record with you?
Maybe they even had him in mind at first.
They had to deliver some demos first to get a deal?
Yeah, and I didn't know them. I ended up working with them through Greg Griffith, who is in Vitapup, and had been a friend of Alex's [of the Godrays] and he ended up playing with them on the demos and on the record.
Do you have any experimental stuff on the horizon?
I'm still working with Jane Hoenberger [of Spook Engine]. We're supposed to be doing a split 7" with John S. Hall. That's with like a full band so I want to play around with that a little bit. Next, I'm going to be working with Daniel Rey recording some Misfits next month.
The original Misfits?
I have no idea. That's not gonna be that experimental. Maybe it will--I have no idea! I'm working with a lot of other local bands.
Are you still grabbing bands off the street?
I'm really scared to now.
Are you too busy?
No. Personally, there's bands I'll see and like but I'll be, "They don't care--they've got their own thing going on." They don't need me coming up to them and going, "Oh, I really like you. Let's work together." I'm just really freaked out about it now.
In what way?
Like the other night, I saw this band and I thought they were really good but they seemed like they'd been around or whatever. They finished a set and I was like, "I should go up and talk to them," but I feel like such a cheeseball. It just seems chessy 'cause now I know what I'm doing--I've got a discography that's relativly decnt looking and I jsut feel like I'm looking for business. That's what it is. And I hate that. That's not what it is, buts it's how it comes across.
Smarmy. Have you ever had any awful studio sessions?
I'm not the kind of person who is a super feminist. If I'm working with a guy band I try to just be a person and not be all, "You shouldn't say that." Every once and a while there's a band that comes in and they really offend me and I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
"Should I just kick them out?"
Yeah. It's not like they're doing it consciously but at the same time...
Do you mean how they're acting or what they're recording?
Oh no, what they're saying or doing. Lyrically, I would know ahead of time that I wouldn't want to work with that band. But sometimes the guitar player will be the rep for the band. He'll call me, "We want to record some songs," and then they come in and the drummer will be a dick. Ohhh...
Do they treat you bad, personally?
No. Some things they say... I can't understand why they would even think it. Another thing is when someone is not 100% comfortable that there's a female recording them. The way it comes across is them saying, "Oh I'm sorry... I shouldn't say that," or being aware that their saying something that could possibly offend me. It takes away from them being a person.
They're trying to be careful?
Yeah. Then it's too personal and you can't really get a good take.
It's strange that a person puts themselves in that position.
A lot of people I've worked with are very aware that I'm a female and I'm not gonna take crap from them. They may get feisty and want to fight about it. This has happenned maybe two or three times.
Do you ever find it difficult not being more of a musician?
It makes me feel stupid. The only thing I would usually do is say, "That note needs to be higher." It's sometimes hard when the band is really in tune, musically, and they'll talk in those terms. "Punch in on the E." Then I feel stupid.
But you probably know a lot from just listening to music.
I've never tried to mess with song structure.
Do you foresee yourself thinking that way?
I'm more of a sound person than a music person. Sometimes that's a problem. Friends of mine will say to me, "Oh, this is such a great song," and what they're thinking is the lyrics. I'm like, "Oh, I love the way everything sounds." I end up hearing bass drum sounds before I ever hear what the singer is saying. It's sometimes a problem! I was just listening to a Joy Division record recently and I was trying really hard to listen to just the lyrics and I was thinking, "This song, lyrically, is exactly how this song, sound-wise, made me feel."
