Tommy Guerrero may be best known as one of the members of the infamous Bones Brigade skate team from the '80s. A lot less people know that he has been playing music for as long as he's been skating. Now, a new generation of fans are coming to know him solely as an accomplished musician and recording artist who has a style that is uniquely his own. Interested in exploring the perspectives of his many solo works, collaborations, television and film works, as well as his connections to the San Francisco art community, I sat down with him one Saturday morning to discuss some of the old days and old ways, new ways, and future days.
Can you tell me about how you got started in the recording realm and also your recording timeline as far as bands and projects are concerned, and the gear you used along the way?
The first time I really remember recording stuff was basically just a 2-track, stereo, 1/4", old school kind of thing with a cheap ass mic. It was probably kind of a massive Dictaphone thing. It was Bryce's [Kanights, pioneering skate photographer for Thrasher magazine] — I think he got it from his dad. I was probably about 13 and that was when I was singing with Jerry's Kids. This was before the other semi-famous Jerry's Kids band.
Did you record it live?
Recorded totally live in the garage with one mic, you know, like how people did and probably still do. That was the first real recording I did, but then I did a bunch of cassette recordings boom box style — doing the boom box to boom box overdub thing and playing bass so I could listen back and figure stuff out. The first thing that we recorded professionally was at Tom Mallon's studio. I think he had a 1/2 inch 8-track or something. We went there as Free Beer and recorded a bunch of songs. Only a couple were released back then (the Not So Quiet On The Western Front compilation, 1981). We still had a whole bunch of tracks leftover that were just released a couple years ago on Alternative Tentacles.
You were playing bass with Free Beer, not singing?
Right — I switched to bass, but I started playing guitar first. But my brother was playing guitar, so we needed a bass player — so by default I became the bass player. I like bass better anyway. Soon the band broke up and everyone went their separate ways and I was on my own. I still wanted to make music, so that's when I got into the 4-track. At that time I was really into the early '80s, sort of gothy stuff like The Cure and Joy Division and things like that, and I was writing my own little songs and wanted to get them down on tape.
Was it a conscious decision to learn how to record yourself?
No. I never wanted to be behind a desk or a board, never wanted to engineer anything. It just came out of necessity. It all started pretty much with the 4-track when I was 19. I moved out of home, got a little loot and bought a Tascam PortaStudio One. I needed to record to get these little stupid songs out of my head. Also I just loved playing music — I'd been playing music already for over six years by then and had recorded in the past and been playing gigs, so it was just out of necessity really — but no, I still don't want to engineer or anything.
From the 4-track world you entered a whole new era in the late '80s early '90s. It was the early '90s when I really started getting back into recording. After I was sort of winding down from being a pro skater and wasn't traveling so much, I moved up to getting an ADAT from the 4-track — I used that 4-track forever though. I have boxes and boxes of tapes — it's really funny... So I moved to a single ADAT and I had the first 1604 (Mackie), and then I got into getting sampling gear — I got the first Emax keyboard, which is this giant monster that has about 25 seconds of sampling time on it. You saved the samples on floppy disk. You could truncate the samples internally in the Emax, which was cool, but I also had the Alesis MMT-8, which is an outboard MIDI sequencer. So you would create all the patterns and then link all the patterns to create a song. A lot of people out there are probably all, "The MMT-8, oh man, what a pain." With the Emax I would maximize the amount of sampling time that I had on that thing to the nth of a second. What, was that thing 12-bit? Sometimes it was probably 8-bit when I would lower the resolution to get more sampling time. So that was my set up for a long time — I had basses and guitars and different drum samples from records that I went digging in the crates for to find breaks, like everyone else in the hip-hop world does. Or did. I would sample whatever — horns, bass, keys, weird sounds, even more drums off my turntable stereo into the Emax, truncate them into loops, sequence them with the MMT-8 and record them onto the ADAT. Then I would layer guitars and whatever instrument was around. With the samples I could add texture and interesting sounds.
Is this the method you used on your first release, Loose Grooves & Bastard Blues?
Oh yeah, that was done this way. But a lot of it, maybe half of it, was 4-track. There are a couple songs on there from the 4-track that I put through this old stereo receiver that had this "Stereo Enhance" button — it would give it this fake kind of stereo image — anything I could do to make it sound better.
For your second release, A Little Bit Of Somethin', you upgraded your gear a bit?
I think there's still some 4-track stuff on there because it has a few tracks from Loose Grooves... on it. But yeah, I upgraded to having two ADATs — I got one of the XTs to go with my blackface. It was 20-bit, I think. So I got another Mackie 1604 and the Mixer Mixer package, which allowed me to connect my two 1604s together with a master fader and a whole load of patch cables. So then I had a semi-pro sort of set up. Back then the ADATs were an arm and a leg and now you can't even give them away. I still have mine.
So did you mix A Little Bit Of Somethin' from the ADATs through the Mackies to DAT?
Exactly. I was just thinking about how I did that. How the hell did I do that? No editing, no automatic fading, no nothing. I was sitting there making notes on mutes and panning and stuff. It was cool. I really dug it. It was hands-on and much more tangible than the whole sort of computer realm. It was cool to learn that way. Even though I didn't know what I was doing, I could hear what I liked and I would just tweak until I thought it was done. Now in retrospect there are things that I would definitely do differently. I would have had it mixed properly, for one. But Tardon [Feathered] at Mr. Toad's mastered it good though. He had a lot to deal with: 4-track, ADATs and me. One of the things that I learned from then was to get the hottest signal I could to go into the ADATs without distorting — to really try and get the best signal regardless of noise.
For your last album, Soulfood Taqueria, you went into the land of Pro Tools. What did you use and how did that change how you recorded and wrote? Was there a steep learning curve?
When I started recording the last record — seems like a long time ago now, I got a Digidesign [Digi] 001 to go with my old, original G4. I was using a Bellari single channel mic pre and the ART Dual MP set of pres directly into the 001. It took me a while to get the hang of the software and the ease of working... There are pros and cons to working with Pro Tools, though. I can get ideas down quickly, but I end up figuring out the structure through editing... which I loathe! With the ADATs I had to know what I was going to do prior — I had to have a plan as far as arrangement and structure goes. But Pro Tools is a better writing tool when you have limited time, but you end up with much less actual playing time, which sucks. The learning curve was quick because of my daily use with the Mac and applications like Photoshop and Illustrator, that have a lot of the same structure as far as key command logic and such. But I still don't know jack. Just enough to get my ideas down and document my thoughts.
Can you run a list of your gear that you are using to make recordings now?
I use an Apple 17" 1.25 GHz G4 laptop with a Digi 002 running Pro Tools 6.7. I use a Universal Audio 2-610 set of mic pres, an ART dual MP set of mic pres, a [Line 6] Pod Pro in the rack, SansAmp PSA1 rack-mounted (the Tchad Blake influence), TC Electronics M1 delay/reverb, Juno-106, The Emax, Mini-Korg, Mutron Phaser, Moogerfooger Low Pass, a bunch of old Alesis 'verbs and multi effects, a PreSonus preset compressor box, a ton of stomp boxes... Mainly everything goes through the Universal Audio 2-610 mic pre, straight from that directly into a Digi 002. The 610 pres are so much better than the Digidesign pres. Once in a while I'll use the Bass POD and then go through the 610, so I can try to get and experiment with different tones. Or I have a Boss ME 50 multi-effects foot pedal that I'll use with my guitar through the 610 again. I have the Pod Pro rack box going S/PDIF directly into the 002 to get a nice, stereo digital connection for guitar too.
Mostly you keep things simple — you use the one signal path and go with that.
Yeah, I like to keep it simple. Just get good sounds in and let it be polished when it's mixed.
You didn't go to school, you didn't read books, you didn't intern at a studio. You just kind of plugged in cables until you got the sound you wanted. So would you say that it's not as hard as people think to make a record?
Nowadays, it's cake. Obviously with the stuff you can get now super cheap and easy, you can make a record with your laptop and never even plug in a microphone or play or record a real instrument. It's out of hand. I think that the actual recording is not as big a deal as the music itself is, right? You hear songs on the radio, recorded probably by the best engineers in the best studios with the best gear, and they suck. It just doesn't matter if the song cost a million dollars to record if it sucks. It comes down to the music itself, always.
How important are "proper" sounds and "proper" recording techniques to you when you're making a record?
Obviously it's really important to get any sound you are recording to sound the best it can be — even if it's a fucked up sound. The need for something to sound really good is becoming more important to me as I gain experience. There are a couple different stages of it though. For me now it's the mixing stage. I leave it to someone else, like you. [I mixed Tommy's last four releases]. Someone who knows what they are doing and someone who has the gear. A separate set of ears really helps. It makes much more sense. You put all that time and effort into making your record — you should at least get a decent sounding piece of crap at the end. Also my approach is, "I'm one of those dudes who goes straight to tape, hard drive, whatever, with effects." Nothing is so thought through that I'll wait until the mix to add verbs or delays or whatever. I need to hear what it's going to sound like in order to get into the music — so it pulls me in. I use a lot of outboard gear and stomp boxes at the front end going in. I'll chain five boxes together to get the sound to be something different or unique, at least to me. For me sound has to have texture. It has to be tangible, like you can almost touch it. So a lot of the times it's difficult for me. I'm sitting there tweaking knobs trying to get these sounds. This is one of the reasons I don't want to engineer. I want to be able to tweak on the sounds and not worry about getting the proper level or the proper mic placement to capture the sound that I've been spacing out trying to get. When I have to stop and think about the technical side of recording it, I lose the moment and the inspiration for the sound. I like to work really fast.
If you were going to sit down and record a song today, how would you approach the session? What is the order of things you do?
The very first thing I do is think. I think about what it is that I want to do. I think about the song, the style of the song that has been going through my head. I wake up at six in the morning and lie there in bed and think about it. How am I going to approach it? Am I going to use a break beat or am I going to start with the drum machine, and how am I going to tweak the sound? What am I going to put it through to get the sound I want? I usually start with drums. Sometimes I'll have a rhythm guitar idea or a bass idea and I need to find a beat for it. But a lot of times, I'll start with drums just to inspire. I'll listen and go, "Cool, I can play to this." I'll just start playing bass along. Three fourths of what I do is improvised on the spot. I'll do a couple takes and use the best take or edit the best parts from them and then I'll usually go to a rhythm guitar or a keyboard pad. Then probably from there to some sort of melodic line. After I've got the foundation of the song and a good groove with maybe a melody line, I'll start thinking about putting texture in there, like samples or a synth patch. I'll comb through records to find something extra. No one would ever know where the sound came from because I take such small pieces and tweak them enough just for textural effect — anything, a horn, percussion, voices, whatever that I can bury in there to give the song more sonic depth. When I have everything in there I start trying to subtract and omit stuff. I've been learning this slowly. It's difficult to know what to leave out. You can add all day — 30 tracks later you're like, "No." Get your idea first and solidify it to some degree where you have the main riff and the main rhythm and melody pretty much set. Then from there keep listening and figuring out what parts are essential and strip out whatever is just filling space. I do a rough mix and take a disk in the car and listen and make notes. I use a little digital Dictaphone and record my impressions and ideas as I'm listening. I look for holes where there needs to be something filling a higher frequency or I notice that everything is midrange or that the song needs a breakdown or a shorter ending, or a bridge needs to be cut.
So you do a lot of recording and then arrange after the fact.
A lot of it is. Just so the ideas are there. It's a time issue. I don't have the time to write a song out then arrange it and then record it. I just start playing, which is fun and inspiring, but I do hate going back and having to edit everything.
You've had more live drums on recent recordings.
Yeah, it depends on the situation. If I have friends in town we mess around improvising and making recordings that are simple and fun. The most important aspect to live is the chemistry. The connection of the musicians feeding off each other. It's such a different trip than just sitting in your secluded little shell wondering why you are doing it. It's difficult to create dynamics without a live drummer. Things get very linear. There's exceptions, like RJD2. He's so good. He has a [DJ] Shadow-esque style that's infused with emotion. I mean Shadow was one of the first to take that instrumental sort of hip-hop stuff and give it a lot of emotion. That's one of my challenges, creating dynamics the way I approach it is difficult. That's why the live drummer stuff mixes things up a bit, so it's not always just break beat stuff.
You've been talking about doing some sessions where you don't have to deal with any technical aspects. You just show up and have an engineer take care of all the mic'ing and set up and gear decisions, etcetera...
It's a complete fantasy of mine. Just to be able to walk in and plug in, the drums are mic'ed, I can go to a drum machine and it's patched already, or a keyboard, whatever. It would be amazing because I work fast as it is but if I had that situation I would knock records out. If I could do that a couple days a week and see what happens — be a musician instead of worrying about the levels and shit. Since I still work at the skate company every day, I have such a limited amount of time where I can record. So a lot of stuff could happen on the spot and it would be productive.
You seem to be someone who looks to the past for the benchmark of good recordings. Do you have an era or certain records that inspire you as far as the techniques, feel or sound of the recordings?
Most of the records that inspire me are from the early '70s, as far as the recording techniques [are concerned]. Like the Al Green records — I love the sound of the drums and everything. Some of my favorites of all time are the Bill Withers records from then. There's also a lot of rock records that I dig, like the early Santana stuff. But as far as contemporary stuff, I really love the Latin Playboys' records. That's Tchad Blake, right? I would love to work with him. The way those guys approach the session — "Put the mic through this Christmas wrapping tube on this hubcap through the whatever" = you know that approach is pretty unorthodox considering that he's a pretty big dude. I love the sound of those records. They sound like they were made a hundred years ago.
What is it about the early '70s recordings that make them so appealing?
First of all, the music is strong. It draws you in and then I think you start listening to the instruments and stuff. I think it's the immediacy of it all. Like they just put a couple mics up and just play. It's exactly how these guys would sound live. What you hear is what they're playing. The really simple way of recording. Straightforward. The bleed between instruments just smears it all together in a very musical way. Like a watercolor painting.
Speaking of these old recordings, a lot of these bands and sessions had producers. What do you think about working with a producer? Would you ever like to produce?
I think if you find the right person, a pretty tolerant, easygoing person. But I don't know if I could actually work with a producer. I'm going to walk in to the studio and know what I want. I've been doing it as a solo artist for so long that I have specific ideas that I just want to execute. I would just do it myself because I know I could get it done. That's kind of my attitude. Maybe it comes from skating where everything is about the individual and DIY. I can collaborate with people... I guess it would be interesting though to have someone sitting outside and telling you when a part sucks. They would have a totally different perspective. They could bring up things that you never would have thought of. That element of it is intriguing. But yeah, if asked, I would definitely like to produce. There are certain bands that I've heard that I've thought, "Man, I know I could work with them, I know what they're trying to do and I dig what they're doing." I wouldn't be the guy who wants to change what they are doing. I'd just give opinions and tell them what I hear and ways that they could maybe try things out.
You mentioned before about the individual and the attitude that came from skating. Skating is a solo sport- there's no team playing. This probably has influenced your music then? How has this attitude influenced and been incorporated into your music and the way you make music?
To begin with, when you started skating it usually was from the attitude of, "Fuck you, fuck everything, I don't need anyone, I don't need any of this. I got my skateboard and that's all I need." That's how it starts and then that attitude turns into a philosophy and a way of being. And that's being very independent, counting on yourself, and whatever it is you want to do — doing it. You learn to be tenacious as hell about anything that you approach. Because in skating, you're sitting there trying to learn a trick 800 times over and you are going to try it until you make it. And then that relates to normal life and everything you do. If something comes along that you don't know how to do, you will just say, "Fuck it, let me try" and you'll keep trying until you figure it out. This nurtures this whole way of being, identity and philosophy of, "I'm just going to do it. I'm going to do it myself." And that's how the solo recording came about. I'll just do it. No one can tell me if they like it or don't like it. It doesn't matter. I'm just going to do it anyway.
There are a large percentage of skaters that have been making good visual art and music.
Just being a skater is being creative because your perspective is so different than the normal Dick and Jane and the way they see things. They might see a handrail that you use to walk up the stairs, but that's not what the skater sees. The curb, that bump, that ledge, the empty pool — all these things have such a different meaning to the skater's brain. A totally different perspective that goes back to the different way of looking at things -you have to approach things differently — it fosters this whole way of being and thinking that relates to anything creative. If you're a creative person it doesn't matter what medium you are using — photography, painting, music, skating, film, whatever — you are just a creative person. No need to define it by what medium you choose to express yourself with. People need categories and simple definitions of someone. Like the way people say that I'm a skateboarder turned musician. I've been playing music for as long as I've been skating. They don't know, but you don't turn into something. It's always there — you just have to find it.
You've also been involved with the art scene in San Francisco forever. In fact, all of your album artwork has been done by amazing local artists. Can you talk about your connection to this world and how it relates to your work/life?
Whenever you live somewhere for most of your life, you end up knowing most of the people who think alike... you gravitate towards the same scene or orbit around it. It's your beliefs and the way you exist that eventually lead you and others down the same street. These artists are people I respect and are friends as well. I think I got lucky to tell you the truth...
You've done a lot of music for TV. Do you have a different approach for recording when the music is for a TV spot?
It's usually easier. For some reason I don't think about it as much. It isn't such a burden. No one is going to know who it is most of the time so it's no big deal. Mostly people want something like they hear on the record but more custom for the spot. So I'll have to sort of approach it the same way I normally write and record. There's not a whole lot of difference. I guess only that I don't stress about it as much. Most of the time they just use licensed stuff from the records anyway. The best part of doing the stuff for commercials or whatever is that you get paid, unlike making records for a label. The commercial stuff is the way that I can continue to make records for no money. It's the same for a lot of artists — the only way they can survive and continue is to be doing cues for TV or whatever.
To take that theory a little farther, we're only making records as advertisements for our talents to make cues for TV.
Possibly — a lot of it is just a creative endeavor, a cathartic trip to get these sounds out of your head and these emotions out. It can be very liberating. That's initially why you make records. Secondarily you think about this stuff: I've sold a decent amount for an independent and relatively unknown artist who doesn't gig or tour. The labels, even if you do get an advance, they recoup the advance along with everything else they've spent and until then you don't see a penny. And nowadays the advances are so small you can buy a little gear and pay rent for a couple months and it's gone. But in the commercial world, they come along and offer decent money and you figure that if you do the commercial and get a bit of money it perpetuates the artistic endeavors. It allows you to keep making records. One hand washes the other and you've got to utilize these corporate kooks to your benefit. I've turned down a lot of stuff — Pepsi, Tommy Hilfiger and a bunch of crap because I didn't want to be affiliated. Plus, there are a lot of big companies that offer shit money for music. Everything has a price. It's just a song. It's not the end all be all, "Oh man, this is my soul." If you're going to use my music I want to be compensated for it or forget it. These companies just want to use you like you're a little nobody — but this little nobody has his middle finger in your face. But it's something you deal with — there's people you will work with that are cool and people who aren't — you choose your battles.
We've been working together, along with Gadget, on a recording project that is focused on sound for picture called Jet Black Crayon. Can you talk about this collaborative approach and how it is different from your solo stuff?
Well, three heads are better than one sometimes. It's nice to have friends whose ideas and philosophy you respect. To have different angles and opinions makes everything fresh. We all have a little different taste in music as well, so we each bring some of that to the table when collaborating on a project. This extracts you from your myopic world and opens things up a bit.
With Jet Black Crayon we recently scored a couple films. Is this something you enjoyed, and would you like to move in this direction?
Completely. That is where I want to go. More so than anything. Trying to sell records is kind of over really — it's a done deal, it probably won't pan out. So collaborating with a filmmaker is exciting. With the instrumental music that we do, it fits with visuals so well. It's so open for imagery and interpretation. No lyrics to get in the way. You can just drift off into space. Scores can and should be emotionally driving. A good score makes a movie. A bad score makes the film fall on its face.
Is this the future? Where making records is just for fun and the serious stuff is the film and TV scoring?
That's what I'm thinking. Ultimately I'd like to be in a position of making music whether it be doing commercials or scoring films and then make records just to give away, to have as downloads on my website. Here you go.
I only have a couple last questions. Do you have one piece of gear or one box that you can't live without? That you use all the time?
Yes, usually it's the old, original, analog Boss delay stomp box. I think it's the DM-2. It's literally on every recording.
I have to ask this: How you are still connected to the skating world?
I work at Deluxe Distribution everyday — art direction\desk monkey for Krooked Skateboarding and anything else that needs my corny perspective or hack skills.
To conclude, what is your next project that we can look forward to? Are working on a new record?
Yes. I'm working on a new recording for Quannum. I don't know when I'll finish exactly, but hopefully we'll get it out later this year.
