When Larry first mentioned the possibility of interviewing my friend Jason Cox, former Studio Red producer/engineer for bands like Bardo Pond, Varnaline, Space Needle, and others, I had to think long and hard about how I would ever come close to capturing this character in print. I've known Jason since I worked at Studio Red, and I could always do my impression of him if I needed to describe him to someone. I'd raise my eyebrows, squint a little, hold my head with both hands and say, "Oh my god, Bri, that is the sickest, most excellent thing I've ever heard, ever. You rule! That's all I can say, you rule like it's nobody's business! Don't change a thing!" (This would be if he were walking in while I was working in the studio or doing live sound somewhere.) So I guess the best way to describe him then would be in his own terms using his language That is, in one high pitch energetic blast, J Cox is the world's sickest, most killer fucking engineer, producer, and/or anything there ever was... ever!
And it's the truth. Since the demise of Studio Red, he has been working at Cycle Sound Studios across the street from my place (Miner Street) here in Manayunk, Philadelphia. I see him every few days either taking a break outside the studio, or riding to work. At a recent Varnaline show here, I couldn't help but notice that the first voice from the crowd after every song was a boisterous Marine's roar from J huddled up in the corner... manning the sound booth! (I have to say I was a little embarrassed for him) But it seems to be true that every single person who is around J, let alone records with him, has a great time. When you are working in the studio with him he exudes energy and this sort of "ultra-hyper positiveness" that could make three days of re-attempting the same guitar overdub seem like a few hours at the park... but playing Australian Rules Football, or something like that.
I spoke with J the first day he was back from a several week tour with Reservoir, the one-man ambient show featuring Jud Ehrbar of Varnaline and Space Needle. Each night's performance was taped to DAT, including one spontaneous night in Ann Arbor, MI when Jason busted out from behind the console to join Jud on stage with a rap performance. I haven't heard the tape, but I believe him when he says it is twisted. (The event was staged again in Philadelphia on the tour's final night.)
For my first interview ever, I am sorry to say I could only conjure up one question in advance of our meeting. So what follows is more like outtakes from a conversation than a formal interview. To start off, though, I wanted to hear his distinction between the words "producer" and "engineer". Luckily that was enough to get us rolling.
He began by quoting Steve Albini equating the word "Producer" with "Nigger" and "Faggot", derogatory terms Albini feels shouldn't be uttered, let alone used in reference to him (he prefers the title "Engineer"). Of course J's take is a little more sarcastically lighthearted.
The only reason the 'producer'/'engineer' thing is weird, Bri, is because fucking higher ups in the music industry made it weird. As this bunch of people gets paid more and more money, they trick up and coming bands into thinking that they absolutely need a producer. There's a very specific track for bands these days. A manager gets a band, gets them in the studio... lets them record, produce... whatever. You know, waste a few months on some label's money. Then they pick one song, knowing the whole time that the one they pick, they're going to send off to be remixed or even recut by a big name producer-guy and get on MTV. It's the 'one — hit wonder' thing. That's why you have a band like Weezer, who was huge as fuck last year, now opening for No Doubt, who is huge as fuck this year, who next year is gonna be opening for someone else. The 22 Brides thing Red and I did... They took the single and sent it off to this guy, Tim... Tim O'Heir I think his name is... I could be wrong, actually. I really don't know who it was... but they went into his studio, probably recut it on 48 tracks or something, quantized shit, double and triple tracked instruments... I don't know... and now the CD single that came out is that take. That's just how it seems to be now.
Does that bother you a lot?
Yeah, It does bother me, actually. I made no mistakes with that recording. It was done when it left the studio. The way it was, was the way we intended for it to be. The only reason it was redone is because somebody higher up in the music industry thought it should be redone... and you already know how much disdain we have for people like that.
So I guess that seems to set things off balance as far as the commercial weight that one song carries verses the value of the album as a whole.
Well, it's not even that. That song is actually not on the album. The album cut was called "Lullabye". But the version they redid was for radio only. It was on a CD single and it was named "Lullabye '97" or something like that. So it's not even about the album. It's about having a radio hit.
Do you think that's going to be a lasting trend? Or do you think that it's always been like that? Because I think that for the last few years this Lo-fi/DIY/Independent rock thing has made it possible for beginners like us to record someone and actually hear it played on the radio, no matter how crappy it sounds.
Well, I would like to say it could be like that again, but I think really what is happening is that our peers, who we were lucky enough record back then at that stage, are coming up and getting caught up in it all too. But hey, I might get caught up in it too. [he smiles and begins to pick up speed] If I were getting paid to take four months to make a record, I might just be an editing, cocaine-snorting fool — me and Billy Corgan sitting around doing nothing but wipe our asses a few weeks at a time." [He breaks out in a roar of laughter. A few seconds passes, he looks around] We're not being very technical are we... hmm
But I seem to think that lots of bands don't want to call us producers, they'd rather say 'recorded by...' or 'mixed by...' And I think that in a backward sort of way that it's because we're not getting paid a shitload of money.
I talk about how hypothetically I'd walk into Cycle Sound during the Bardo sessions and there'd be a bunch of people mostly on a couch reading, and one guy's saying they want another guitar in this or that song. From there J would go to work. He'd get really excited and say, "Yeeeeah, cool. Let's take the Marshall.... or something huuuuge like that... and," his eyes getting wider the whole time, "we'll hang a 414 from the ceiling in the Warehouse, like 30 ft. up... something fucking totally sick like that." The band would look around, until someone let out a half-stuttered, marijuana-tone "Yea... Yeeeeaahh!."
In that situation, I think, the album's a little bit of your art as well, J. I always picture that to be the role of the producer. Don't you think that right there, by being so genuinely involved and creative, you're doing as much if not more for an artist than someone who's biggest contribution is their name and a big hole in the label's bank account?"
Exactly, Bri... [he smiles as I'm getting just a bit overly passionate, and puts his fist on the coffee table], I want to be that guy... the one who does less for bands, and takes most of the money! [Another burst of laughter.]
I figure I should drop the subject for fear he was starting to get too much of a kick out of me. In an attempt to talk technical, I ask him his opinion of the recent outburst of "retro-sixties style" recordings. I mention the Olivia Tremor Control, the Apples, etc., all of whom he seemed to know very little about. But he does have something to say.
Clothes, bikes, cars, music... everything, it seems, has to be retro. [He mentions that he, on the other hand, feels the bulk of these recordings are just poorer quality.] I don't know, Bri. I'll say two things... First of all, I'm a nineties-guy. I hate the eighties, I hate the seventies, sixties, fifties... I just want to look ahead. [He trails off to talking about Aphex Twin, but I'm not sure that his second point ever got made.]
Now that [Aphex Twin] is THE BEST shit! It really is something new... drill sounds and shit... ambient, fantasy — J.R.R. Tolkien kind of background stuff. This guy is a super — genius. Jud and I listened to it the whole tour. We've got to get a sampler for the studio, Bri, [talking about Cycle Sound]. You can just do the sickest shit... really!
What kind does Jud use for Reservoir?
It's about the $1000-range AKAI. I don't know much about it, but it fucking rules.
Do you have any plans to record with him soon, or is Reservoir going to be all self recorded by him?
He talked a little about doing some drum samples here at Cycle, and up at Red's in New York, and then just choosing his favorite segments to sample from... He's a sick drummer, though, you know it? Whatever comes of it, I'm sure will be crazy. The last album was done all on 4 track, but I'm not sure what this one's gonna be like. Probably more digital stuff, I don't know.
I don't think I have ever heard you say anything about 4 Tracks, or home recording experience. How were you first introduced to recording music?
In general, I have about five minutes of experience with 4 tracks.. No, not even that much. But I remember when I was little, in like third grade... listening to like, "Reunited" and "Hot Child in the City". I'd make tapes using the three-band EQ. It sounds hokey, but I remember that shit. I was the kid at school who always carried around the tape recorder... you remember, the kind where the record button is a little red dot in the play button." [That, he finds particularly funny and laughs for a while.] I had one of those. And, you know, fuckers would be following me around the school yard... I'd be playing 'Life in the Fast Lane,' and like, Three Dog Night, and shit. [He really can not stop laughing.]
So I always wanted to be into that shit. When I was in college, I was bored... went into the Marine Corp, and after about a year I realized I had to go to recording school. [Note: he spent another three and a half in the Marines, one of which he was at Desert Storm.] I enrolled when I got out at Full Sail Center for the Recording Arts in Florida. It was basically overpriced... like $20,000 for a one year Associates Degree. There were some great classes, but a lot of throw away shit too... like a music video course I couldn't give a shit about.
I interned at Third Story Recording in West Philly, making DAT copies was about all I did. I was looking around . I needed something, and I heard Red's Place got flooded, and he was going to be opening a new place [by this he's referring to Adam Lasus's basement studio in Queens Village, Philadelphia]. I didn't know him, but I gave my resume to Dave Frank the Manager. We all met and that's when I really got started.
I started out assisting with Red mostly in the beginning. Later with Kittywinder, Sugarplant, Varnaline and all that, it was pretty much equal, at least that's how I approached it. And that was nice of Red. He definitely didn't have to do that.
So you were getting "producer's" credits then, even though... [Laugh] you probably weren't getting paid like one...
Yeah... well, you see, Bri... [Stretching his arms out] Isn't that's the basic rule? "NOBODY GETS PAID!"... I mean, it's not "getting paid" unless you can just like... do nothing for six months at a time, but... take drugs and go around the world, or something. [He laughs for a second.]
But I'm sure... that if eventually we were making a little money, there'd be a whole bunch of shit that'd come with it anyway. You start becoming a little crazy. You feel cheated. You feel like you're always getting screwed. I mean, listen to Jello Biafra... that guy just sounds like a sniveling, sneezing... bitch. To him everything's a conspiracy. He's always saying how much he's been fucked.
And it's probably true. But that's true on all levels, whether it's the state, government... everyday life! You just gotta walk the line, and if you don't make a few bucks, at least have fun and try some different shit along the way.
The set up at Cycle Sound, where Jason records, is simple yet very classy. They record to a 16 track, one inch Tascam normally, and recently they picked up an Otari one inch 8 track machine. The main focal point of the studio, however, is the console It's a 32 channel MCI that was custom built for Philadelphia's legendary Sigma Sound in 1978. It has seen the likes of The Talking Heads, Madonna, Steely Dan, and a lot more. The sound, like lots of consoles in its class from that time period, is beautifully warm and huge, and although it has its scratchy knobs here and there, it is a delight to use. I know from the times I have worked on it. As for the environment at Cycle, well, all I have to say is that the warehouse opens up to a large motorcycle restoration garage lined with rows and rows of bikes (How cool is that?), and in addition to that, somebody there... I haven't been able to find out who yet... has this thing for collecting what is truly the most terrifyingly awful artwork I have ever seen. The collection is mostly nudes that seem to have come from some College Painting 101 class or something (the elective section). They are mostly very bad, but the collection as a whole is hilarious, a moniker of bad taste. For the past year and a half Jason has been working with a band called Burn Witch Burn. Their music is sort of Celtic-Bluegrass meets Zappa, and the lead character in the band is none other than, former Dead Milkman, Rodney Anonymous. For an engineer they present somewhat of a challenge, since they, like Bardo Pond, insist on is performing all their takes live... drums, mandolin/bozuki, acoustic guitar, violin, bass and vocals. I heard the recording and it sounds excellent.
So I had some questions.
Okay, give me the low-down on the Burn Witch Burn sessions. I understand they wanted to play live. How did you make it work?
Yeah, the whole band played live... drums, acoustic instruments, everything. They even had a recorder and/or harmonica in some songs, so I put the drummer in one closet [i.e. isolation room], and the bassist in another closet. Those two wore headphones, but everybody else was just out in the main room, even vocals.
How were things miked-up?
SM 57's. The way the gain is, you have to put them millimeters from the strings. But if you can get the gain up the frequency range on them is great. It seriously is. We also used a few [Sennheiser] 421's. I think there's four or five settings, the extremes are S for "Speaking" and M for "Music", that might not be what they stand for, but whatever... we had one at Studio Red for years and I never knew it had the different settings, but anyway, if you put them on the S setting those things transduce as much gain as a 414 [AKG] or more, no shit.
It sounds like you didn't use any condenser mics.
We didn't. Well, the truth is, we didn't have any. We have all Dynamic mics in the closet at Cycle. When we need condensers, we just rent them, but I've become pretty proficient without them.
So having worked at Cycle Sound, and Studio Red before... two really nice places, how do you feel about the word "demo"?
Uughh!... another four letter word, in my book.
Do people still talk to you about doing demos?
Sure, and I laugh. I say I am not into demos. Because, when you say "demo" you are automatically sellin' yourself short. 'If you want to record songs... and have them sound great, then I'm into that. But I'm not into demos'... Seriously. I really think when you're done a recording, it is what it is. If it is a bad recording, then that's that. But it is a recording, ...therefore it is. [he laughs]
What do you say to musicians out there about how to make a good recording great?
Well, Effects... DON'T BE AFRAID TO USE EFFECTS! I hear so many bands say, 'We don't to do that, because we can't do it live.' Well, there is a difference between live and in the studio. And you can do shit in the studio if you want to. People are so scared. They say that as far as any effects they want 'just a little reverb, just sit it in the mix.' Then you ask them their favorite records and they are usually crazy, sick mixes with lots going on. Effects can be too much sometimes, but used properly in a tastefully noticeable way they can make a record twice as good.
Are you talking about blanket effects like reverb and echo, or things like a onetime echo on a lyric, a phaser on one bar of the drums... little accents here and there?
Either, really. They both can be used tastefully. Even just a nice Plate Reverb on a few things... The problem is a lot of times you can't even get around to doing things like that in the studio, because musicians just have a conniption about using effects.
What was the effects situation like with Bardo Pond?
Well, that's different, really. Lapsed, like Amanita, was recorded completely live, just like Burn Witch Burn's stuff. But those songs were cut with over 40 effect pedals right to the tape to begin with. There were pedal effects on two guitars, bass and vocals already.
Then did that make mixing easier or more difficult?
Well, it's crazy. The majority of that record, again like Amanita, is the original rough mixes, the actual takes I did for them to take home and listen to when we finished cutting. We came back the next couple of weekends to mix, and spent hours working on each song, because, you know, everyone thinks that you are supposed to do that (including me sometimes). They'd eventually become frustrated, so we'd either stick with the rough mix from before, or I'd start everything from scratch, go through the normal adjustments that I make every time just to get started (like the rough mixes) and take one or two suggestions on top of that. Then we'd go to tape.
So I hear a lot of people are already commenting on the production of this album. Does that make you laugh?
Well, yeah, actually. It does. It's a sick recording, but that's them, not me. [He's being modest]
After our conversation, I realized that J was much more interested in talking about the creative aspects of the music he was recording than the specifics of the recording process. He would talk about the quality of the sounds much more readily than the technical route to getting it. Speaking of favorite recordings of his own, he praised J. Mascis for how dramatic the Dinosaur Jr. albums are. "The guitar solos just pop in loud as fuck, like 'here I am!'"... kind of like J himself (just kidding, J). I think for any band he's the perfect mix of "big studio engineer meets the kid who'll try anything." If there was anything I learned at Studio Red watching Jason and Red, it was that anything goes. You could use a converted Walkman as a room mic, or you could record vocals out in the street (like they did with Varnaline). But in the end, the sound from Jason, best heard recently in Bardo Pond's albums Amanita and the upcoming Lapsed, both on Matador Records, is big, rich and, yes, dramatic (like him).
