If there is anyone out there who is meant to be working in music as a producer, engineer, and songwriter that would be Toronto’s Gavin Brown. For years, he has been Canada’s go-to producer. His list of credits is long; he’s ultra-enthusiastic and spares no expense. He utilizes practically everything out there (plug-ins, gear, etc.) to make a song the best it can be. He’s worked with Metric, Barenaked Ladies, The Tragically Hip, and Three Days Grace. He’s an inspiration in the number of things he achieves in music. Recently he co-wrote and played guitar on Sting’s song, “Rushing Water.
How did you get into the music world?
My parents and my uncle are musical, so I started when I was five with piano and drum lessons. I was touring with Phleg Camp by the time I was 15 years old. So, by the time I was 20, I’d already toured the United States a few times, as well as across Canada, as a drummer. In my early 20s, I started doing more studio work and professional touring. I wound up being the kid in the corner asking questions, coming early and staying late. I was enjoying the recording process and staring at microphones and looking at compressors. Then, by my mid-to-late 20s, I had been involved in some songwriting and production. I really transitioned in when I was 27. I made it a goal to have a number one song and sell a million records within a year. For some dastardly reason, it happened.
Whom with?
It was the second single with Three Days Grace, “Just Like You.” The first song was called “I Hate Everything About You,” and that’s still their best performing song. I worked on a number of records with them over the years, as a writer and a producer.
When I talk to producers, usually they’re engineers. I’ve hardly come across one that’s also been a co-writer. Maybe Bob Ezrin [Tape Op #31]?
Yeah. There are a bunch of us. I love engineering, and I love gear. I own a ton of it, and I have my own studio. I built a new studio in 2021, getting out of my basement where I’ve been for the past two years. But I do come from this music side, originally, and I find I love the framework of song. I love the emotional part of the lyrics, and I believe that for me I can’t do a good job producing a record unless I know what the songs are, and I know what the words are.
Absolutely. It seems you like to get fully immersed.
The sonic choices and the textures, even all the minutia – like little EQs, filters on keyboards, instrumentation, and arrangement – they’re driven by song. It’s always been that way for me, as a drummer. My drum mentor, Jim Blackley, told me the first lesson I had with him – I was 20 and had already taken lessons for 15 years – he said, “Be able to learn all the lyrics and sing all the songs. You’re playing drums, but you’re playing drums in a musical context.” That transferred into producing. I love hi-hats; they’re my favorite instrument, but it’s not what the folks at home are listening to. I want them to sing along, and I like to have people interested in the music with whatever artist I’m making it with. That’s been the majority of the approach that I take; it’s the song. I don’t write everything I produce, but definitely in certain bands I’m very active in the collaborative part of songwriting. There’s a band I did at the same time in the early 2000s called Billy Talent, and I did no co-writing. Both of those bands came out at the same time. I did a lot of arrangement, and it was song-based, but Ian [D’Sa, guitar] would come to the table with seven parts for a song that needed three. I helped him choose the parts that worked well together; we focused in and got them sorted. There’s a lot of sorting that goes on when there are creative people and they have 100 ideas. They often think all 100 of them are spectacular.
Editing is difficult.
Yeah. I was lucky enough to meet Quincy Jones and hang out with him at his house one day, maybe five years ago. I was there for several hours. He told a story that I heard before about Thriller, and how they’d have hundreds of songs. They’d record ten of them and throw six of them away, and then they’d get 200 more songs. The story’s grown over the years, but I believe it to be true. There are entire records that have been made by artists and put away because they weren’t right. Not only is it fighting the “bad” stuff. Well, I don’t like to use the word “bad;” rather it’s what doesn’t work. But it’s also cheerleading for what is good.
Including creating a good vibe in the studio and being prepared to allow space where more can happen.
I believe in that; creating the plus/minus kind of situation. Like, “This part here is fantastic. These are the kinds of things we’re going for. These are the reasons why. This other part over here might be really good, but it doesn’t have the same qualities.” If everyone’s on board and everyone agrees, it’s an effective process. Coming from a song and music background where I played a lot of instruments, in my late-20s I endeavored to spend an enormous amount of time learning about engineering, gear and cables, guitar picks and strings, compressors, mics, EQs, consoles, and mixing. That was the part that I didn’t have down by then, and I worked with a lot of great engineers and mixers. I learned a lot. I still believe that engineering is its own unique part of the process, and I have an unbelievable amount of respect for engineers. Especially in the analog world, it’s an art. Producing oftentimes has a lot to do with producing results, dealing with the personalities, dealing with labels, managers, budgets, and all that other work. Meanwhile, the engineer’s focused on getting the technical side of the recordings down. When you have both of those being done with high-level folks, it’s unbelievably great. I couldn’t imagine engineering and producing at the same time. Yay to the people who can, but I can’t. A lot of the engineers I’ve worked with who have produced records have fulfilled the role of engineer, but “engineer plus.” Maybe even the artists themselves. There are some Sting records, for example, where there’s a guy listed as a producer. I know Sting a little bit, and he produces his own friggin records.
He’s been honing his craft for years.
It’s like Prince. He did his own thing. But, as a producer, I should be able to speak deeply and thoroughly on the engineering process. I firmly believe that.
It makes everything go faster if the engineer and you develop a shorthand.
Yeah, a shorthand. I’ve owned 50 different compressors over my days, and I own tons of gear. I love it, and I know how to use it. But when we’re in the moment, and we have a band on the floor or an artist in the booth, my job is to deal with the artist and the band. The engineer’s job is to make sure everything’s working. I believe those to be unique tasks and equally as important. I’ve worked with some great engineers over my lifetime and have been thankful for them in the process for sure.
Can you name a couple?
Yeah. Jacquire King [Tape Op #45, #88] engineered the first Billy Talent record. He’s mixed some for me in the last few years. He’s great. Lenny DeRose worked with me for a long time. I met Eric Ratz when I was playing drums. He was an engineer on a session and I was a session guy. When I started producing, I called him because I thought he was spectacular. We made a lot of records together. He’s gone on to produce and engineer a lot. I learned a lot from [Michael] “Elvis” Baskette, who engineered the first Three Days Grace record.
Do you use the same mixer often?
Randy Staub has mixed a ton of my records. Chris Lord-Alge’s mixed a bunch. Bob Clearmountain [Tape Op #84, #129] mixed one song. Tom Lord-Alge mixed a song. Mike Shipley [#118] mixed a song. Michael Brauer’s [#131, #37] mixed a couple of my records. He’s spectacular. He mixed the Tragically Hip record [Now for a Plan] that I produced. You send him the record, and he’s an artist. He adds his thing to your songs, which I love.
That album is amazing.
Thanks. Lenny DeRose engineered the record and Michael Brauer mixed it. I can’t ask for a better team. I’ve been doing a lot of work with Robert Orton, who I want to highlight. He’s a British guy who grew up working for Trevor Horn. Trevor was his mentor. We have the same manager. He’s mixed everything from country records to pop records to aggressive records I’ve made. He’s famous for mixing Lady Gaga, Charli XCX, Sting, and Mumford & Sons. He’s got a huge discography of top records. I send him what we made, and it comes back sounding perfect. If I want someone to add a layer of art to our record, there are mixers out there who will do that. If I just want someone to balance it and make it spectacular, that’s what Jacquire would do and that’s what Robert Orton does. I learn a lot from these mixers, especially what to do in the studio to get it to the point where they can do their thing. I love being involved in all of it. I love the business too. I have a label and a management company. Some people don’t like the business side, but I enjoy it. It’s all part of the same thing to me. Most of it is exciting, because I get to learn. I’ve been lucky enough to make rock records and pop records and country records and alternative records.
Yeah, I noticed a wide range that you’ve done.
It’s all music, and it’s all trying to create a successful opportunity for the artist. It’s my job to produce results. That’s my definition of being a producer. That can be the song. That can be the recording. That can be the business side. As long as we’re trying to make the results happen, I get excited. Managing expectations is important. There have been times when for $10,000 artists want to have a record that sounds like $200,000. Great, me too! That’s the hard part; trying to squeeze as much out of the budget as possible.
I noticed you’re focused on song tempos.
Tempo is very important. Ninety percent of that comes from making sure that the pace of the communication of the singer lines up with more of a talking tempo. When people write songs, they often write them too slow. Often there’s too much space between words and between phrases. If the way that you say the words is faster than the way you sing them, I find it strange. Also, peoples’ attention spans are pretty limited. If you think about the other forms of entertainment, video games and such, those are so fast.
Who would be the most challenging artist to write with?
If someone’s good at lyrics, I want to help with melody. If someone’s good a melody, I want to help with lyrics. If the chords are cool, I don’t need to change them. If it’s too esoteric and they want to be a little more commercial, I can help with that. If it’s too commercial and they want to be a little bit more indie, I can help with that. I wouldn’t say anybody’s any more or less challenging. Some people I’ve worked with a lot over the years are pretty easy now, because we have a dialogue.
Anything else you want to add?
At this point in my life, I’ve been lucky enough to do a lot of different things in the music business. Everything from playing in arenas on tour to playing in shitty backyards. I’ve had some big hits and some total failures. I get to be on the creative side and the business side. I’ve been in a lot of different countries. I feel lucky and blessed, and I have a lot of gratitude for the music business.
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