Steve Malkmus: of Pavement

Pavement. The band that sets many an indie rock heart aflutter. Well, they no longer exist now, having performed their last show in London last fall. We chatted extensively with Pavement's "leader" Steve Malkmus, a few months before the band ground to a halt, and we covered the band's recording history in detail, which will be featured in Tape Op, the book, due out fall 2000. For the more timely among you, here is an excerpt from that conversation where we detail the band's recording of their swan song, Terror Twilight, with producer Nigel Godrich (Radiohead's OK Computer, Beck's Mutations, REM, etc). Incidentally, after four albums this is the first time Pavement has used a producer in the studio.

The first time you used a producer was just recently. You never had anyone officially produce. Bryce [Goggin] [ #40 ] is probably the closest.

He had a lot to do with how our last album [ Brighten the Corners ] sounded. He did a great job- he's definitely creative. So he gets credit, but he could've been called the producer of the last album if he had really pressed for it, but we were sort of against that title anyway. We still are, we don't think we ever get produced, but by this point it's sort of old. So it was like, "Nigel wants to be producer? Well it's fine with us." We've done this for five albums now, and we wanted to work with him too.

He's creative.

He's really creative, and he works with Radiohead, which I think is a really cool band. We found out that Nigel wanted to record with us. We didn't request him, he just said he would do it and we were excited cause we knew that they were a cool band, even though I hadn't listened to Ok Computer all that much before we got a hold of him. We decided we wanted a producer and he decided he wanted to do it and we didn't want to ask anybody. We didn't want to look and he'd asked. So I called him up and he was a really nice, friendly guy. He had just done the Beck album [ Mutations ] and I like Beck. 

That's a good sounding record.

Those are two really good records and the two coolest popular bands, just about. We were originally going to do it in Sonic Youth's studio [Echo Cañon], because we were just supposed to record on the cheap, like we always do. "They'll have a bunch of different little toys," cause they're Sonic Youth. Their studio had a good tape machine, like the two inch 16 [Studer]. We went there with Nigel and started to record there (this is after rehearsing at your place, and Steve's for a while). Nigel couldn't get his head around it. All he brought were some speakers and like one microphone. He just wanted to use everything else there. But it was really weird. The faders are backwards.

You pull them down for the sound to go up?

You'd be surprised how that can freak you out. Things like that. There were weird things you had to do with playback and listen back, and there were no headphone mixes per se. We left and were going around to other studios in New York, cause there are inexpensive ones in Brooklyn that are still cool. He didn't care about working in the nicest studio. But he knew, cause he mixed REM at RPM, that he liked it fine. He said, "We should go check it out." We were all sitting there like, "We can record anywhere." It's just a professional, impersonal studio. That's where we did a lion's share of the recording. It's very comfortable but, I mean, I wouldn't go back there really. 

You got an advance from Matador for the first time ever too, didn't you?

Yeah, this was more expensive then any of our other records. The last one wasn't cheap either, just because of flying and paying Bryce and then mixing. It wasn't as much as this one, it just kind of started getting expensive. Again, for me, I just wanted to get it done. Done well- I didn't really care at this point. I just figured we could be irrational for once in our lives. Just do that big thing and see if it's fine, but still, that being said, we were still kind of grasping. We only did twelve days there or something. Basically we wanted to have all the drums and everything, but the vocals done, and we didn't quite do that. So we went to London to do the vocals and mix it. Get a break. We went to this place where Nigel was a tea boy and started his stuff. He met Radiohead there, when they were doing The Bends , at RAK. That's when he agreed to become their mate. When John Leckie was passed out or something. He was there helping.

Being a tape op.

Totally. So we were in the third room. It was like Bernard Butler was there, from Suede, in the big room. Stephen Street was mixing Crissie Hynde's album. We were the underdogs in the cheap room. That's where we did the remainder of the recording. In this room it was really cool, API board with a big upstairs with a big glass partition. That's where the producer stayed, kind of in a control room or a disco booth, but up top. The studio was down below. We did three songs there with another drummer [Dominic Mercott, of the High Llamas] because we didn't get a couple of good performances on a couple of songs. We finished it up, and we were going to mix there, but Nigel got paranoid about it and didn't like it. So we went to this other place that's even nicer. That was a pretty cheap place it was like 200-300 pounds a day. Which is like $450, but we could stay there too. It had all this nice stuff. It had more of a vibe than RPM but it was also an impersonal studio. But that stuff never really bothered me that much. Doesn't matter if it's impersonal or not. I just want to do the record. I don't need to have all this vibe necessarily.

You're comfortable with the recording process. You started out with the recording process.

I mean if you saw where we did Crooked Rain ... it wasn't like that guy was going to get all these jobs like when they came to see that place. It was just a room, like a black room, with drums and a couple of keyboards in the back. There was like not a poster on the wall. Just cereal bowls and..........

No lava lamps?

No. You just want stuff to work, and I guess you want it to sound like what it really sounds like outside the studio. That's really important. So the place we went to was called Mayfair and that's where we mixed it. Nigel got a deal, because he works there a lot. That was nice. That was more of a place where they have cable TV and big menus to order from. That sort of place is fun, but they do make you pay for it. Everything's marked up 200%, not just the tape. So we finished. Nigel did most of the mixing himself, he wouldn't let us touch the board. It was the first time we didn't touch the board when we were mixing.

You were there though.

Yeah, we were there, except he remixed a couple of them. Where it was virtually the same mix. "Carrot Rope" and "Billie" he did again one more time. He was a multiple pass guy. He had a different style than Bryce or me. We just sort of go through and mix it and that's it. It was this existential battle where we conquered the song right then in the spirit of the moment and it was done. But that means we did go back and do a couple of them again. Nigel was sort of the same way, but he had more of a hit or miss style. It seemed like he would just do it, take a pass and mix it in two hours. Then he would take it to his house and decide there. Some songs he did over and over. Like "The Hexx," he might have done that one too much actually. It's hard to say, but just about everything he did more than once. He ended up automating, it was pretty easy automation. He did it really quickly, it didn't take long like SSL style. He ended up doing that and he did a really good job I think.

I always thought he had a style; OK Computer is a very stylized record. A lot of distorted compression on drums, and all these things that he does. But then when I heard [Beck's] Mutations, I was like, "Maybe he doesn't do that." Because it's a very low key record, I always feel like the band's in a nice wood living room. Then your record doesn't sound like that or Radiohead. It's an entirely different thing. What kind of things did you feel he brought to it?

Beyond the bare bones of recording, and whatever he did like limiting to tape and EQing to tape, he did more of that than we have before.

With drums...

Yeah, drums and guitars. Everything was a little more effective when it went to tape. We normally just did everything raw, onto tape, then fix it in the mix or change it later. His way was actually smarter, because you knew exactly what you were getting. Like when you mentioned mixing, all you had to do was balance the levels, and maybe do some echoplexing or plate reverbs. Stuff like that. So besides doing that, he was occasionally more active in trying to get things done. With cutting tape, and we had some slave stuff. We've never done that before.

Two tape decks?

Yeah, he would just copy a drum thing and put it back where there was a mistake. He was just more into noticing rhythm, and with singing, given the time he had, he tried to make me sing better.

How did he go about doing that?

He just would say, "That was a little flat, do it again." He was also into my rough takes. He listened to the tape so much he got used to those. So he wanted me to sing sort of like that, but in tune. Once or twice, like on "Ann Don't Cry". I had something else in mind, but didn't feel like fighting. He was like, "You do it like that or like this." I mean the lyrics don't mean anything, they are really sort of demo-y.

Were they one's where you were sketching it out?

Yeah, I was just doing that, and sometimes he would want that. Other than it was, "Would you do that again. It was wobble-y. That's out of tune."

Would he do multiple passes and comp things out and try to put that together?

We tried that at first, but then he sort of...as we got tired we hoped it would be the right one. Originally we did three passes, and I'm getting into it and he would listen back and try to comp. Then he'd try to fix things. I mean if I was a better singer, or if I was singing better, which I wasn't really, for some reason, it could've gone faster. I never really had problems like that before. Then again, if you listen to the last record, there are some bad vocals on Brighten The Corners . But with Slanted and Enchanted and stuff it just seemed like I did it normally. I think these are harder songs, and sort of dependant more on the singing, and a little slower. It easier to sing and you can express more when a song is slower. You can express more, but also there's more pressure on your singing. We did some doubling, very subtle, not obvious doubling. Also occasionally he would come up with little ideas. Like the thing on... "Hexx" with noises. Just his choice of Echoplex or reverb. Sounds and phases. That was more his ideas, and we were happy to let him contribute. I was already contributing, and I wanted someone else to contribute, to make it different. 

I keep reading things about you being the leader of the band and you finally admitting it.

I don't mind that. I always thought that, but I just figured people would find out eventually. Nobody wants to hear that Billy Corgan made the whole Smashing Pumpkin's album. It's not that interesting, when you're in a band. I think everyone was like, "Whatever it takes to get it done." That was enough for people. Like if Mark thought I thought I could do it better, he would be happy. If I really thought I wanted to do the bass on one song, and it was a good idea, I would just do it. Even like "Spit on a Stranger" I play bass on that song, just because I thought I had a bass line that was better. But if Mark's is better, then we use that. We listened to them both and mine just turned out to be better, so it was like, "Let's just keep that." It's just a matter of time in the end as well. The control freak aspect has a lot to do with time. You know when someone teaches you to play a song, how long it takes for you to get into it.

It's rare when it's really fast.

There were some straight songs where you could do it. You're trying to make a new sound for a band — if Mark only has two weeks to learn twelve songs, that's a lot. He had more time this last album so it was better. Or Scott, they don't know what to add, so they just play it straight, and that's fair. I've lived with the stuff more, and we don't have forever to make an album and we don't live in the same place. So everyone knows why it happens. I mean that's like with Bob. He's like, "I'll just be touring, I don't care if I play." That's his attitude, maybe a defense mechanism. Not contribute as much as he could. Again if you live in different places or even if you didn't. I'm glad that our guys are however musical they are. They aren't playing all the time. If you say, "Play a C." Mark has to think for a second. "Okay C is... here." It doesn't mean he's bad, but he just doesn't think that way. Those guys that "play" C are going, "Doo Doo dwiddle Doo." They know where every C is located.

It seems like having a producer is good for you. Having someone else in there going, "I've got sonic ideas, things to take to the band." Maybe push you a little, whereas Scott and everyone else is saying, "Do what you want!" The band could succeed or fail on one of your performances. I'm not saying Bryce wouldn't pay attention. He would, I'm sure.

If he's in the role.

Bryce would have told you if he thought something was really not working.

He did that, probably... I mean I would ask, "What do you think of that."

It seems like a good point to start working with people like that too.

It's fun, it's like an extravagance, really. They take a big percentage of your record. A lot of of them take up front money. I wouldn't recommend it to bands who couldn't afford it, no matter how great it is. For me it was an extravagance. I wasn't thinking, "Oh this is costing that much." Originally I was thinking that. "Oh they are sort of scam artists, producers. When you're in a real band you don't need anyone's help." As I got older I realized that I was wrong. I just wanted to work with this cool person who is talented. Like you were saying, it did- n't have anything really to do with that producer mold. It was more like somebody else in here. Just to see if it was good. I didn't know what it was like, I had never done it before. At a time when you're not so precious of what you're sound is like, is another good time to do it. Maybe when you're first starting you're like, "Oh I need to be this way." You're also worried that you're going to sound like some other band. "We sound too much like Radiohead." It's more of a risk. At our point, we didn't feel that it was that much of a risk. We don't have to worry if it sounds too much like this or that.