In 1981 Calvin Johnson began putting out cassettes on his label K and started a revolution and an empire... Shawn Parke gets the story while John Baccigaluppi shoots the film...
...Since that time, he has produced and released records for a huge list of folks, including Beck, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion and Modest Mouse. I recently sat down with him in his Dub Narcotic studio located in a large building in Olympia, Washington, where the K offices and warehouse are also housed. In 1988, he moved into the building after years of recording in the basement of his home. We talked about recording, music and he told some great stories.
What stuff are you excited about that you've recorded recently?
I've been doing some stuff with Dub Narcotic [Sound System], sort of an ongoing drama. We have a single that's coming out in September. It's the first thing we've put out in four years, which I didn't even realize 'til we finished it. It was like, "Wait, we haven't done anything for a long time."
Did you engineer the new single?
Adam [Forkner, of Yumu Bitsu] worked on it. Around Dub Narcotic, there's pretty much me, Phil [Elvrum, of The Microphones], Adam, Mirah [Yom Tov Zeitlyn], Khaela [Maricich, of The Blow], and Diana Arens has done some stuff with people. Those are, pretty much, the engineers that work here. I used to engineer all the Dub Narcotic stuff, but it just seemed like maybe it would be good to have another perspective. Adam actually is the person who helped me build a lot of the stuff. When we put the studio together, originally in this room, I just kind of threw it all in here, and we did the Halo Benders record. After that, I thought, "Maybe I should try to organize this thing." So he built the snake that goes to the other end of the room, he built the patchbay, he wired everything up and he had a lot to do with getting the 16-track set up. Even before Yumu Bitsu recorded, he had done a lot of work here. It's interesting because there's all this crap here, but everybody has there own feeling about what they like to use. I like to use the RCA stuff, and Phil pretty much only uses the Altec, and everyone has their own thing.
What are the dimensions of the room?
I think it's like 110 ft by 45, [the ceilings are] 11 1/2 feet. The thing about this room that's really cool, is that there're no columns or beams or anything at all. It's a completely open space, and there're windows on three sides, so the light's really amazing. All of us, every day, are just like, "Thank god we get to work here." I really like the idea that people are using it. It has multiple uses. There have seriously been times when people have been recording, mixing, silk-screening, painting. It's all happening at the same time, and that's just part of it. My idea for a studio is just getting an atmosphere where people will feel like they are going to be able to be creative. I think that the way I did that before, in the basement when we first started, and here, also, is to try to create a situation that is really different from what people may have experienced in a studio. But, also, make them feel like — maybe not consciously — "Hey I'm gonna do some really good work here." I think part of [where that feeling comes from] is that we don't have a clock anywhere in the studio, and part of [it] is that no one's paying anything for it [the studio]. Everyone who records here, pretty much it's for K. I think when you go into a real studio, it's so enclosed and encased, and there's this feeling like, "Okay, we got to get in here, and we gotta do it!" I think there's a little bit of an adrenaline rush that might be helpful, but I think, a lot of times, there's a stress level that gets people off edge. Some people can work really well in that air. Other people walk in and go [shifting head around quickly and nervously], "Oh wow this is the real thing!" You get somebody's cassette release and it's really cool, "Wow, I can't wait for the record to come out." Then, the record comes out, and it's all really flat and weird sounding. When they made the cassette, they just did it, and it's great. When they made the real record, it's all uptight and it just didn't have any...
They are out of their element, and it just doesn't come across.
Yeah, totally. So, if we get a place that's going to be outside of where you normally are, but you're going to feel like it's really special, then what you do here is going to be special. So that's always been my idea. I think that we do that here. You gotta walk in right away and know this is not a normal studio because, first of all, we got rid of concepts like isolation. There's not going to be many recordings that come out of here that don't have seagulls on them, trucks backing up, the guy sawing downstairs or someone making copies. That just happens [and] that's cool. Mark Greer, who does a lot of the mastering of our stuff, has commented on that. We were doing Khaela's The Blow record and there's this really quiet part, and he's like, "Wow, a truck didn't back up right when you started doing this quiet part!" and Khaela's like, "I know, it's amazing how often those things happen at the right moment." And it's like, "Huh... okay, that's one way to look at it." You're not going to get that controlled environment here, but you have an environment. I mean, you've got this big giant room, and you can do lots of neat stuff with it. I think that's the basic concept. I don't think it really matters what you record on, I really don't. You can record on a cassette deck. You can record on a computer. This is my preferred format: 2" 16-track. But, I don't think that you have to record on that to sound good. I mean, look at the Halo Benders' first album. We did that with two [SM]58s. I don't think we had any of the preamps we have now. We were doing everything through a Dallas board, and it just turned out great. I always try and keep that in mind. I've gotten more reaction from that record than probably any other record I've ever made. And, the Beck record I did around the same time, same thing. That's, probably, the best selling record I've ever had anything to do with. So, it doesn't really matter what you have, it's the feeling that's going on, and that's all that matters. But, at the same time, I like to experiment with equipment. I like to get it, and work with it. When Dub Narcotic Sound System was in L.A., about five years ago, we did a session at the Dust Brothers' studio and they were like, "Why are we even recording this? You already recorded this song. It's great. Let's just use that." And, we were like, "We want to record with you guys." But, they hardly ever had actually done a live band. Mostly, they just worked with people on their vocals and things that were already recorded, and then they mixed it. So, they were kind of at a loss. We were setting up the band, and they were like, "So... How would you mic this?" [Calvin], "Well, I'd put this here, and..." [Dust Brothers] "Really... Okay." And then we'd go into the studio, and they had some of those Altecs, and I was like, "Wow! I've got some of those. Those are really fun.." And he was like, "Yeah... we never actually use those. How would you use those?" And I was like, "I'd put them like this." [Dust Brothers], "Oh yeah. Let's try that." I ended up sitting there, engineering the whole live part of it. Then once we got it going, they did it all on the computer. It really reminded me a lot of the first time we worked with Steve [Fisk] at the Music Source because, before we'd done that, we'd done everything on 4-track or 8-track. All the sudden, we were on a 24-track. The thing that was most remarkable about doing it on a 24-track, after doing it on an 8-track, was that there was nothing to talk about. Before it was always like, "Well, we only have 8 tracks, so..." And there, we just recorded. We never thought, "Well, we have to leave tracks for that..." We just recorded, and then we were done, and it was like, "Well, that was easy." That's what it was like working with them [The Dust Brothers]. And, at that point, we were still working with an 8- track here, too. So, we were used to thinking that way for Dub Narcotic, and we didn't have to because they just had unlimited tracks. They just did take after take, and they kept everything. I'd sing, and they'd keep all the little stuff. It was just easy. They were really fun to work with. That was my first real experience with digital recording, and that was like, "Hey, this is great. It sounds awesome." We never actually finished the song, but recording with them was awesome. So, I don't really give a fuck about digital or whatever. I just like to record this way. I'm set in my ways. It just seems like there's a lot for me to explore still in this format, and I'm enjoying it. Getting into a whole new level of technology, to me, just seems like a pain in the ass. That's why I don't do it. That's really the only reason.
What do you think of the CD-R, as a format?
It's awesome. I think it's incredible that people can just make a CD-R now, and it's real. Where as, in [the '80s], what was real was a record. Even when cassette became the dominant format, cassette-only releases were weird. They weren't real because it wasn't out on record. So now, there's nothing unreal about it when you're making a CD-R. It's completely compatible with everybody's machines, and it's done. I'm not against technology. In fact, the whole K concept started with the concept of using the new technology of cassettes, and getting the word out to people. I think the internet is an incredible tool for getting the word out, getting music around, and people sharing music. I think it's fantastic. I don't personally do it just because I'm old and set in my ways, but I think it's great that people do.
I wanted to ask you about when you worked with Greg Sage [of the Wipers], and how that influenced you as far as your recording techniques and your ideas.
Well, I'd only recorded really once before in a studio situation, with Steve [Fisk] at Evergreen, which was a 4-track reel-to-reel. So, I did that in 1981 and then in '83, when we did the first Beat Happening session with Greg, he was just like, "Get to work." He just got to work. [He] came in. [He] set things up. He didn't really talk much. He just kind of did it. But, it was all set up in the practice room. I thought he did an amazing job. It was good. Right after that, he set up a studio. We went down there in '85, and hung out there, and checked it out. It was really cool. It was a weird room, sort of an octagonal shape. He had a control room at one end, walled off with glass. He had that concept of 8 different tube preamps and each one — this was the one for guitar, this was for bass. That's what he had told us. That was interesting. He didn't go through the console like most people go through a mixing board. He did it into a preamp, into the deck, and then monitored it. That was an idea that I've brought to Dub Narcotic. I've always had the studio set up that way. We come into a preamp, then into the deck, then into the mixer. We don't record through the mixer. We only monitor and mix through the mixer.
So, you don't get any of the mixer on the reel?
Sometimes I have used the mixer, but this particular mixer is pretty weird. I got this from Tom Robinson, who's another mentor. He worked a lot with Greg. He's a guy in Portland who used to have Concert Sound. He's had studios there and a lot of '80s punk bands recorded with him. I got a lot of equipment from him when I was starting the studio. It just occurred to me one time, "Tom Robinson has a lot of old junk," because I'd been to his [Concert Sound] warehouse before, and it was just full of crap. So, I called him up and was like, "I've got this studio that I'm starting in my basement. I was wondering if you have any old crap that you want to get rid of." He said, "You know what? I'm really glad you called. I've been thinking that I need to clean this place out. You should come on down here." So I drove down to Portland in my van, and he just took me through his whole place and was like, "I've got this mixing board, you want it, you can have it." So he gave me this Electrodyne board. It didn't have any meters, had the amps, but they were disconnected completely, and he had a bunch of extra parts. He went through and gave me a bunch of crap — a lot of really cool stuff like a spool of cable, my snake box — the shell, useful stuff, like the patch bay, and tons of ends, bits and pieces of things. Just, basically, gave me almost everything. At the end, I had two preamps, and just piles of crap. So, we're sitting in the office, and I was like, "So do you got any mics?" He basically gave an incredible deal on four mics, and everything else was free. So, I paid hardly anything for these mics, and I got all this other crap. But, his deal was, "You have to take it all now. You have to take this shit now, and never bring it back." One of the mics was a Neumann, KM-86. I got a lot of good stuff with him.
Who was running the Halo Benders God Don't Make No Junk session?
Pretty much me and Doug. I think I was, sort of, since it was my studio. There were times when I'd just be like, "I'm beat," and he'd go, "Just take a nap or something," and he'd just sit there and record stuff.
What made you move over to working with Phil Ek for the other ones?
Well, Phil showed up for the second one just because Doug had started to work with him with Built to Spill, and so he was like, "Hey, Phil wants to show up and hang out." I'm like, "Yeah, whatever." He ended up doing some stuff that was great. And, then by the time we got to the third album, Phil and Doug were pretty much a real team. Doug really relies on Phil a lot, I think. He trusts his opinion, and, so, by that point, it was like you don't get one without the other. Which is fine because Phil turned out to be really valuable, especially in the mix. His attention to detail is really great, especially when we got to Avast! [Tape Op #18], and sometimes nobody else was really paying attention. Phil would be the one who was keeping track of everything, and it was really great to have him there. [When] they were doing the last Built to Spill record [Ancient Melodies Of The Future], I was working with Wolf Colonel down here, and we were like, "Wow, we're really getting some stuff done. Sounds great." We were patting ourselves on the back. And, Doug had been like, "Yeah, we're recording, come on up." So, we drive up there, and we listen to whatever it was they were listening to at the moment, and it was just like, "Fuck it! Let's just give up." It was incredible. I was like, "Phil, what the hell are you doing here? It's incredible!" Everything sounded so huge, so beautiful, and so deep — like you could get inside there and swim around. I was just like, "Wow! Phil, what the hell is going on here?" Phil comes from that Jack Endino [Tape Op #13] school. [Jack Endino] recorded [Fitz of Depression] at Dub Narcotic with me, which was just really awesome because that was a real education for me. He was going to come up for a day or two, and we were going to pay him hardly anything, and he was just like, "Yeah, I got some time off. That sounds like fun." He was so into it. He was so into them. He was so into just being in the basement. He ended up staying like four or five days 'cause he wanted to. We mixed up at Seattle somewhere, but he spent a lot of time on that record, and I think it was worth it. He brought a few things, but, mostly, he was just like, "I don't care what you've got. It doesn't matter to me. I'll just work with what there is." One thing he brought, though, was a Tapco mixer — a little 6- channel, 8-channel Tapco- '70s thing. And, I was like, "Why did you bring that?" It wasn't that different than the board I was using at the time, which was this Dallas thing. He's like, "You know, it's my first mixer and I've used it on almost every session I've ever done. I just like the way it sounds. I've used it for something on almost everything. And, I like this weird spring reverb." But, yeah, working with him was great.
I read an interview with Isaac Brock [of Modest Mouse] awhile back, and he said something like, "Working with Calvin can be kind of difficult. You jingle your keys or some change in your pocket, and Calvin wants to mic that up, and turn it into a song."
Yeah. Why not? I've worked with Isaac a lot over the years. I had a really good time recording the Lonesome Crowded West. That was one of the funnest times I've had recording. It was just hanging out with him at the studio. He just blew me away with his intensity. He knew what he wanted, and he did a lot of experimenting in the studio on that record. That was a lot of fun. We got up in the morning, went down to the studio, were there for 12 hours, 14 hours, went back to sleep, got up, came back to the studio. I learned a lot from doing that record.
So, you were playing producer on the Lonesome Crowded West. What did that entail?
Just being there, and making suggestions. I guess Jeremy had been very happy with the way his drums sounded on Sad Sappy Sucker. He was really [wanting] me to get that kind of sound again, so I brought in some stuff from Dub Narcotic, and we did that, and then — It's really interesting to hear the difference. After we started mixing the Lonesome Crowded West, and I went home and listened to those other recordings that we'd done, I realized that we sounded completely different. We didn't sound anything like the Dub Narcotic recordings. I think that on the EP, the bass is so much more present. It was really big sounding compared to Lonesome Crowded West where it's a lot more in the background. It just sounds more like a punk rock band — more of a rock band sound on the EP — whereas, on Lonesome Crowded West, it's a lot more pop-band-thing. I think that it turned out incredible. I was really happy with it. Isaac's just been a real inspiration to me. Every time I've worked with him, I've learned a lot from watching him work. It's the same as working with Doug or Beck or whatever. They're people who have their songs. They know what they want. And even if they don't know what they want, they have this little filter, and they're like, "No, that's not it. Oh, here it is." And then, it's just great. It's great to watch that, and try to figure out what that filter is. Dub Narcotic Sound System, as far as a recording project, has been the most exciting to me because I've been able to be most experimental. Plus, working with Brian [Webber], who was the guitarist for so long, there'd been some frustrating aspects of it, but, also, I learned so much from him because he knows a lot about music. He knows a lot about different kinds of music, and he also knows a lot about recording. And so, I just feel like my working relationship with Brian, for those 4 or 5 years, was, probably, the most productive and rewarding working relationship I've ever had, of any type, of any band or any situation. I feel like we did a lot of stuff where we just recorded practices all the time. A lot of the first record is just recorded practices turned into songs. He had a lot to do with finishing it up, and making it a song. He can play any instrument, and he's really good at that. The concept of Dub Narcotic as a studio for this house band idea, and just working with the equipment, and having a lot of instruments around, seeing what can happen — that really happened on the first couple Dub Narcotic things, especially Boot Party. That was an album that just came together in the studio, totally. It was written in the studio.
I can't imagine a better scenario for getting work done than a whole bunch of people doing similar stuff around you while you're working.
There're rare occasions when it's really nice to have just me and this person sitting here. But, most of the time, I try to make it so that people don't feel like they need to be in that kind of situation — so they don't feel self-conscious. People are coming and going and they're recording, and that's just part of it. You don't have to feel like, "Well, what if someone hears me play this?" Let's get rid of that kind of energy. That's just not productive at all. Try to get rid of all that kind of self-conscious and scary stuff, and make it not scary. Obviously there are other labels that have their own studios, but I don't know if there's ever been another label that has a studio where everyone has a key, and they come and go whenever they want. We had one meeting once, after that, it just worked out. My idea is: as little organizing and stress as possible, and things just work themselves out. Everyone's doing their thing. It's working. I think that the music that we're working with now at K, is some of the most exciting music that we've ever had anybody do. The artists are all full-time people. They're doing it all the time. That's super-exciting. They're all feeding off of each other's energy. It's the most exciting situation that I've ever been in, in terms of the artistic energy and the end results. I'm pretty satisfied with things right now.
