Lyle Lovett


During the early pandemic lockdowns my wife, Jenna Zine, and I searched out interesting online streaming performances as a way to keep connected to the experience of going out to see live entertainment. We found it uplifting to be in āreal timeā with the performers and other audience members, while also helping support artists. One of our favorites was catching Lyle Lovettās In Conversation & Song, where he remotely shared songs and stories with songwriters he admired, such as Lisa Loeb, Terry Allen, Shawn Colvin, Michael McDonald, and Marcus King. Lyleās honesty and respect for songs really stands out when he talks with other songwriters, so when his new album, 12th of June, was coming out I thought itād be interesting to talk to Lyle about the recording of the songs as well. As I expected, he was a true gentleman; he practically started interviewing me, and we had a great time talking.
During the early pandemic lockdowns my wife, Jenna Zine, and I searched out interesting online streaming performances as a way to keep connected to the experience of going out to see live entertainment. We found it uplifting to be in āreal timeā with the performers and other audience members, while also helping support artists. One of our favorites was catching Lyle Lovettās In Conversation & Song , where he remotely shared songs and stories with songwriters he admired, such as Lisa Loeb, Terry Allen, Shawn Colvin, Michael McDonald, and Marcus King. Lyleās honesty and respect for songs really stands out when he talks with other songwriters, so when his new album, 12th of June , was coming out I thought itād be interesting to talk to Lyle about the recording of the songs as well. As I expected, he was a true gentleman; he practically started interviewing me, and we had a great time talking.
Before I forget, my wife says I have to thank you for the In Conversation & Song livestreams.
Oh, thank you! We did 20 during the isolation. I enjoyed doing them so much that I havenāt given up on the idea of doing more. It was so weird at first. I did my first one when it was still the first serious lockdown. John Hiatt and I have been friends for years, and I felt comfortable enough with John to call him and ask him if heād do it. It was free across all the socials and our websites. We had 318,000 actual views. I couldnāt believe it. The company that we worked with to help us broadcast it measured all the metrics and knew how to do all that. It flabbergasted me. I heard from a lot of folks who donāt get out, or canāt get out and canāt go to shows, even when weāre playing live. That was a great feeling.
Youāre reaching people that you wouldnāt normally reach, and in such a different format. Iām amazed how much research you seemed to be doing for each one.
Well, arenāt you nice? For the most part, those were friends of mine, so I didnāt have to do research. But it was fun to get to try and help set them up to tell a story and talk about their process a little bit. Thatās what I enjoyed hearing as a fan. I approached it like that. The weak point was that every other song was one of mine, for me. [ laughs ] I would have rather just interviewed.
Well, I donāt know if thatās a weak point. The first question is a āguest question.ā I reached out to your former pianist, Matt Rollings [ Tape Op #133 ], and he asked, āWhat are the challenges of recording vocals and guitar at the same time? Is it easier to just sing, or to do both live?ā
Oh, thatās really cool. Recording vocals and guitar, doing that at the same time, does present a technical problem with leakage.
Separation, yeah.
Even if I am going direct with the guitar, which we did not do on this record, weāll still have guitar leakage in the vocal.
Yeah, definitely.
Itās something that Iāve struggled with, or had to deal with, from my very first recordings. Matt will know that playing and singing at the same time is important to the way my songs feel, and important to the phrasing. I would phrase differently if I sang without playing, and vice versa. So, for the songs to feel the way I think they should feel ā the way that they do when I make them up, sitting on the side of my bed or wherever ā Iāve got to play and sing them at the same time.
Is that something you work out with a producer or engineer? Asking questions about what their best techniqueās going to be for that?
Yeah. I say, āThis is what Iām doing. Deal with it.ā They go, āOkay.ā [ laughter ] Iāve actually worked with just a handful of engineers and producers over the years. They understand why itās important to me. Theyāre technically able to help as much as they can. Itās a factor, and itās part of the way the records sound. That leakage is just part of it. Itās not ideal, but Iām of the mind that itās more important to have the songs feel right than it is to have them sound pristine but not have that feel. Itās something that we have to accept and work around it.
Your new record, 12th of June , was engineered and co-produced with the fabulous Chuck Ainlay [ Tape Op #97 ].
Chuck is one of my favorite engineers. My first three records were released from the Nashville part of MCA Records. Tony Brown was the head of A&R at MCA Records in Nashville at the time, and Tony was the one who gave me the green light at MCA. Jimmy Bowen was running MCA Nashville in those days.
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Famously.
Famously, yeah exactly. Chuck was one of Bowenās favorite engineers. Chuck was a young guy from Indiana who hadnāt been in Nashville that long. By the time I started recording there, he was well-established. He was recording George Strait, Reba McEntire, and The Oak Ridge Boys. All the big acts that Bowen was producing himself. When we were recording the Pontiac album in 1987, Bowen had a studio, Sound Stage [Studios], leased in Nashville. There was a big room in front at Sound Stage. I never got to record there, but it was a remarkable room in that there was no control room. The mixing console was in the room where they were recording. We recorded the Pontiac album in the back studio, which was smaller; a place called Back Stage.
Yeah, Iāve been back there.
Now, Back Stage has been expanded. Itās still smaller than the front room, but itās bigger than it used to be. That was where we recorded this new record. Typically, in every recording Iāve done up to this one, Iāve been in the control room for every playback, every overdub, and every comp of every part on every track. Iāve always been that involved in my recording process. We would take a break, and we recorded the Pontiac album 30 days straight in March of 1987. I remember we were in there on Easter Sunday, and thinking, āSomethingās wrong with this.ā On breaks, I would walk up to the Front Stage, and Chuck would be sitting at the board by himself, working on tracks. Comping this or that or putting tracks together. Iād sit down next to him, and heād tell me what he was doing. Thatās how I got to know Chuck. When it came time the next year, when we recorded the Large Band album, I asked Tony Brown, I said, āI sure like Chuckās records and the way things sound. Do you think we could get Chuck to engineer this record?ā Tony worked on it, and sure enough, Chuck recorded and engineered the Large Band records. Iāve been friends with Chuck ever since. When it came time to do this record, he was nice enough to say heād do it.
Thatās a 30 year wraparound there.
From 1988. It was 31 years, because we recorded these tracks in November 2019. When they moved my deal from MCA Nashville to MCA Los Angeles in 1990, the first record I recorded for MCA Los Angeles was Joshua Judges Ruth . It came out in ā92. We started recording in the Fall of ā91. George Massenburg [ Tape Op #54 , #63 ] co-produced and engineered that. His assistant engineer was a 20-year-old Nathaniel Kunkel, Russ Kunkelās son.
Youāve been playing with Russ Kunkel for how many decades now?
Well, exactly. Russ played drums on Joshua Judges Ruth , which was my ā92 record, and Iāve recorded with him ever since. Heās been playing live with me since 2003. I love listening to Russ think. He really listens. He reacts and listens, and his feel is amazing. This summer itāll be Russ and Leland [Sklar, bass] together in the band. Thatās going to be really fun.
It must have been great to see Nathaniel Kunkel become so talented.
For sure. I liked working with George and Nathaniel so much. Nathaniel was so smart about everything he did. The next record was I Love Everybody . It was a more stripped-down record, in terms of arrangements. At first, I thought I was just going in to do some demos ā to see how some of those songs could sound ā and it turned into the record. I called Nathaniel and I said, āHey, Iām just going to play through some songs. Would you come and engineer this?ā It turned into that record. It was Nathanielās first time to be first engineer on a project. After that I kept working with Nathaniel. Toward the end of all of that, Nathaniel, because of the state of the recording business, he ended up taking an industry job. I called Chuck and explained everything to him. I said, āWould you be willing to do this record and work with me?ā He said, āYes,ā and I was so grateful.
It seems youāve kept your eyes on the engineers who did very good work. Massenburg, Nathaniel, and Chuck Ainlay are going to support your vision.
Well, itās remarkable to get to know people like that over the years. Iāve done a few one-off projects with Don Was [ Tape Op #113 ] and Ed Cherney. Getting to know Ed and work with Ed on Mattās record [ Mosaic ]. Gosh, I even got to work with Al Schmitt. Iāve worked with Dave OāDonnell in New York. Iāve done a few one-offs with Russ Titelman producing songs for movies. To work with the people in the business, like Peter Asher [ #137 ], is a learning experience. To be in the room with people who have that depth and history in their career, itās a privilege. Iām enough of a fan that it appeals to me. I think of standing in a room with Don Was or Peter Asher as being a big deal. To be able to learn from them and hear their stories, itās a fascinating thing to me. Iām grateful. None of that is lost on me, in terms of how special it is. Even at this point in my career, I often think back on all of the wonderful things Iāve gotten to do.
You had to navigate the ā80s, where sometimes studio techniques involved drum machines, lots of click tracks, and sterile sounding or big reverb recordings. You had to get through that work in your style and stay authentic to the song.
I was lucky in the ā80s to work with people like Tony Brown who supported the way I wanted to work. They were willing to let me be myself in terms of material, and in terms of the way we recorded. Iāve always recorded with the whole rhythm section. We basically record live. On this new record, we recorded the tracks with the horns all at once. We didnāt overdub the horns later ā we recorded with everybody playing. I love putting a bunch of talented musicians together in a room and hearing how they react to one another. An arrangement in the hands of talented musicians just gets better. Matt was always brilliant. Why would I want to limit somebody with his talent and say, āPlay exactly thisā? Putting musicians all together in a room, and trusting them to make things better, is part of the fun of recording. There were a couple of tunes on this record, āStraighten Up and Fly Rightā and āGee Baby, Aināt I Good to You?ā that Iād recorded before. āGee Babyā¦ā Iād recorded with Matt Rollings [for the film Kissing Jessica Stein ]. āStraighten Up and Fly Rightā we recorded for a Garry Marshall film [ Dear God ]. Then, on the last couple of large band tours that Iāve done, we did arrangements so that [vocalist] Francine Reed and I could do those as duets. Thatās why I recorded them on this record.
Most of your records have covers of other peoplesā work, as well as your writing.
My love of songs and songwriting, and the Texas songwriters I always speak about, does come from a standpoint of a listener and a fan. I enjoy their music. I talk about them among all my influences so much, because they were people I could go see live. Those were people who would come through Texas, and I could go and see them in person. Listening to records also makes an impression, but when I get to see somebody live, talk to them, and know a little bit about how an artist works, it makes their music special.
Early on in your career you worked with producer Billy Williams.
I was just going to say that we need to talk about Billy Williams! Billy Williams and J. David Sloan had the band that Matt Rollings was in; the house band [The Rogues] from Mr. Luckyās in Phoenix, Arizona. I met them in a serendipitous way, when we were both being booked on this gig in Luxembourg in Europe. Thatās how I got to know Matt and the guys. Billy co-produced everything that I did, through all those early records until Billy retired in the late aughts. Billy is such an important part of my music. He helped me to think about arrangements, and he taught me so much about recording and the difference between a recording arrangement and a live arrangement. Being around Billy was an education. I still rely on him. I send him mixes and talk to him on the phone. With this new record, I sent him rough mixes. He was helpful.
Thatās amazing.
He was the music director for the Mr. Luckyās band in those days, when Matt Rollings was 17 or 18 years old, Billy was in his early 40s, and they had these brilliant young people in the band. Matt Rollings and Matt McKenzie [bass], Ray Herndon [guitar], and Jeff Borree was the drummer. I remember hearing Matt play piano for the first time and thinking, āWow, Iāve never heard anybody play piano like that in a country song.ā I listened to every set they played for a month in September 1983. The fact that they would be willing to work with me was a big deal to me. Everything we do is so influenced by the people we know, the people we meet, and the people we work with. The best part of life is to be able to engage with all those folks and be involved.
Youāve worked with a lot of very sympathetic studios and players. Have you ever been in studio situations that werenāt to your liking?
No, I havenāt. No. I think I can sort all that out ahead of time. There are always creative discussions that happen, but theyāre usually productive. Somebody either presents me with an idea that I like better than my own, or they present an argument that makes me think, āNo, I like the direction Iām going here.ā It either confirms what Iām already thinking, or it changes my mind in a good way. Thatās part of the fun of the process. Iām 64 years old at this point. My parents both worked for Exxon. I donāt know what thatās like. When I was 18, and first starting to play in clubs, I never dreamed that at 64 Iād still be playing music or would have been able to play music the whole time. When I was 18, I thought, āThis is something fun to do for now.ā I donāt have the perspective of what other jobs would be like. But I do know this about my job: Itās rare when any two days are alike. There are such a variety of things I get to do. I get to meet so many interesting people that itās interesting every day. Recording is such a different thing from playing live. Playing live is such a different thing from writing a song. Every facet of it is different, and every facet of it is interesting. And the contrast: Being able to perform in different setups. Going from sitting by myself in a room and trying to make up a song to being on stage and listening to an arrangement come to life. The contrast keeps me engaged and involved and interested.
I tell people all the time that every day I wake up itās a different set of problems to solve or a different scenario.
Exactly. Yeah. Thatās certainly one way to say it. If there are problems to solve...
Interesting problems! It keeps my brain engaged.
It does. How do you deal with somebody who wants to play acoustic guitar and sing at the same time?
Technically, one of the techniques Iāll use is to set up figure-8 patterns on the microphones. Iāll use the null spot, between where the two pickup patterns are, and where I can get some separation. If the person doesnāt either sing too loud, or play guitar loud, or at least if they do both loud, it works. If someoneās strumming loud and singing quiet, then weāve certainly got an issue. But the figure-8 trick, if I get the mics in the right places, Iāve had sessions where Iāve kept the acoustic guitar track and re-tracked the vocal, and thereās just a tiny bit of bleed. It has to be set up just right.
For fixes, we typically went to alternate takes and used that. Itās tricky to line up your instrument so that I donāt feel any kind of a rhythmical shift, and to have the leakage. Replacing a word with a vocal where we donāt have any guitar bleed ā where the leakage goes away ā I can feel the whiplash of that. Itās pretty tricky.
Have you done vocal punch-ins where youāre strumming along to add the bleed back in?
Oh, for sure. Absolutely.
Thatās one trick.
I know some people use a piece of plexiglass between the instrument [and the mouth], but anything that affects the way I might play, or if I have to stand, that can affect the performance.
Iāve tried pieces of foam, but then they canāt see the frets. Uh-oh!
I need to see my frets, for sure! What mics do you use on acoustic guitar?
Sometimes something ātrashy,ā like a dynamic mic. Something a little flat-sounding can give the acoustic guitar a papery or āold recordā quality.
Yep.
A lot of times Iāll use small-diaphragm mics. Even stereo, if itās carrying more of the song.
Yeah, for sure.
If itās just one person singing and playing, and weāre not going to add tracks and nobodyās playing along, Iāll put mics around the room and try to get more of a feeling of space.
Get the sound of the room. We used very little reverb on this new record. We used more room or ambient sounds.
The record sounds really natural.
Oh, cool. Nice.
Well, youāve got Chuck Ainlay engineering.
Heās great. Itās fun to go in and have that confidence, and not be worrying about it. Go in there and think about playing and singing, and about the arrangement. Thatās a wonderful feeling.
You are a true collaborator and youāre able to make sure that people are carrying the weight with you.
I grew up without brothers and sisters. I love the collaborative nature of being in the studio. Itās an interesting shift playing in the studio with people as opposed to playing live. Playing live, itās so freeing. In the studio, thereās an extra concentration; people realize that even though this is just one performance of a song, itās going to be the permanent record of the song. Musicians think of it in that way. Performances in the studio can be extra special because of that. The environment, the interdependence, and the supportiveness in the studio is something that is heightened. As supportive as players can be to each other on stage live, in the studio thereās an extra quality to it. These people here are trying to help me. Theyāre trying their best. I love that.