Were you raised in Seattle?
Yeah, me and my brother, Jim Sangster [The Young Fresh Fellows], grew up here. In high school, I was an exchange student for a summer. I ended up in the countryside of Denmark, in the middle of nowhere. It was an awesome experience. I ended up with a family where it was a father, mother, and four daughters. Nobody spoke English except the mom, and she went to work every day. [laughter] So, I learned Danish. The year after I'd been over there, I met a bunch of European kids who were in the Seattle area as exchange students. After high school, I thought, "I can go to Europe and contact all these people." That ended up being 13 years that I lived over there, played in bands, and made records.
When did you move back?
My wife's Danish, and we moved back in '97 when I was in my late 20s. We had one kid who was about four years old when we relocated, plus a newborn. Now, we have three kids who are pretty much out of the house.
You were in a band in Denmark?
The Sharing Patrol, that started here in Seattle with the drummer, Jonathan Stibbard. We'd made a recording, maybe in 1983, with Conrad Uno at the original Egg Studio in his garage basement. Jonathan ended up in Denmark with me and he still lives there.
You ruined his life! [laughter]
We've been playing music together since junior high. My brother had joined the Young Fresh Fellows, and [his bandmember] Scott McCaughey was interested in us. They had made a record with Uno, so Scott invited us over to Egg to make a recording.
PopLlama Records was also Conrad's label. I remember hearing that first Fellows record he put out [The Fabulous Sounds of the Pacific Northwest] in 1984.
This was right around the time that came out, and Scott and Uno recorded us. It was me, Jonathan, and Lou Alexander as a little trio. Pretty rough, but PopLlama ended up putting out a cassette. That was my first real studio experience there. Uno was awesome, and the Fellows went on to do a lot there. When I was in Denmark we got signed to a small label, then we got signed to EMI Denmark, and we made a bunch of records with some pretty good producers. We got to work with Vic Maile. He produced an EP [The Sharing Patrol in Cb]. We were going to make an LP, but then we had label problems and didn't get to do the LP with him. The EP is still one of my favorites; I love his records.
He'd done a lot in the UK.
Yeah. He came up through Pye Studios; he was a tape op there. He engineered The Who's Live at Leeds recording. And then Motörhead, Tom Robinson Band, The Godfathers... Working with him was amazing. He came to Denmark and recorded us there.
What were the studios like in Denmark?
There were nice studios. That place had a 2-inch, 24-track [deck], a Trident TSM [console], Neumann mics, and good gear. There are a lot of good studios there, like Sweet Silence Studios. Puk was out in the countryside; I got to produce a record there. I did start producing records when I was over there, based on being in a band that had worked with some good producers and being the guy who was interested in it. But I didn't really have engineering chops at any point. I was the guy in the band who had a 4-track, would make demos, and think about the arranging.
How did you come back to Seattle?
We came over and played some shows occasionally. It was fun. The Sharing Patrol made a record with Kurt Bloch [Tape Op #52] at Hanzsek Audio over here before I moved back. Actually, that was part of what brought me back. The band started going, "We should spend a year in Seattle," because we had so much fun making the record. Somehow, my wife and I made it work to come for a year in '97. After about a year, we thought, "Do we go back, or do we stay here?" I was never confident as an engineer until moving back to Seattle in the late '90s. I called up Conrad Uno, and said, "Do you need somebody to be in the studio while you're at the baseball game or the golf course?"
I'd always heard Conrad liked golfing!
He's still an avid golfer. Floyd Reitsma sometimes goes down to Arizona to visit Conrad and they go golfing.
I've worked with Floyd at Studio Litho in Seattle. He was so helpful.
Yeah. He comes here a little bit.
There is such a great scene of studios in Seattle.
There is. When I moved back and started at Egg, I got to know Jack Endino [Tape Op #13]. There were a bunch of people who were like, "Oh, cool. You're doing it? Come over. We'll talk." Really supportive. Denmark's a small country. It's not as hard to get to the top of the heap in a little scene, but it's also much more competitive. I feel the same way about the music scene here. It's never ever felt competitive.
Were you working at other studios outside of Egg when you returned?
Mostly I was just working at Egg for the first couple years.
Was Conrad giving you tips on engineering?
Oh, totally. Anytime I needed help, he was there to help. That's when I got obsessed with the engineering part and started reading books. If I had a question, Jack Endino was happy to get a phone call and talk about it. Then I did some work at Avast! Recording [Tape Op #18] before it moved into the Ironwood Studio building, plus Electrokitty and definitely at Studio Litho. Floyd would help me get started, and then I would roll on my own for a while. There was definitely a period where I had growing pains going into bigger studios. Egg was so simple and so small; once you had it down, you could make a good sounding record there. But as soon as I had more gear, more channels, and outboard processors… I cringe to hear some of the records I mixed back in that period.
What were the tough learning curves?
I think that if you get bogged down in the technical, you'll lose sight of, "When is it done?" The technical would get in the way of me getting through the mix and feeling good about it. Now, I've got a process where I can take care of that. I've got listening habits that work, where I have to listen quiet, listen to mono, and listen loud and big. I remember sometimes I'd be two-thirds of the way through the mix: I wanted to plug in an echo, and I'd spend 45 minutes getting the echo going; ruining my flow.
You didn't have a process that made it easier on yourself?
Yeah. One book that helped me was Michael Paul Stavrou's Mixing With Your Mind. That helped me develop a process. He's got such a different way of thinking about listening…
...and tracking.
Yeah. Everything in there is like, "Turn up your ears. Don't turn up the monitors. Learn to listen more intently. Pick up on the differences." His whole thing about mixing is to get all the technical out of the way so you can set yourself up to have a half an hour of fun. That half an hour is where it all really comes together. The magic, the blending, and making it more than just a mix. Your imagination can take over.
Totally. Did you ever work as an engineer under other producers?
Sure; definitely some, but not enough. I worked with Tim Kerr, who's more of a cheerleader, storyteller, and somebody who gets people riled up. He would come to Egg, and we'd do sessions for Estrus Records. But it's mostly been just asking people questions and assisting. Kurt Bloch comes over here and does records, and his approach is very different than mine. It's fun to help him set up.
How's it different?
Just mic choices and the way he mics up things is different. The sounds he wants to hear when he's setting up is very different. His records sound awesome. "Oh, you do it like that?" That's cool. He's going to be mixing it. I like ribbon mics on the overhead and on the side. Kurt's like, "I don't want all that snare drum in my overhead." I'm like, "I do."
That's what we learn along the way.
And it's different for every room, too. When I was working at Egg, for drum overheads, I didn't want much snare drum because it was weird and phasey from the low ceiling.
Yeah, the old Jackpot! was like that.
There, I wanted just cymbals and hi-hat in my overheads. But now, if it's a bigger room and we've got tall ceilings, I love the snare sound in the overhead mic.
You've got a 20-foot ceiling in the live room here.
Yeah, it feels great! When I was upstairs in this building, I would try to track drums and the ceilings were eight-feet high. It was horrible.
When did you build your own studio space?
In 2006 Andy Smith, who's still my partner here, and I opened. Andy was playing in bands and asked to shadow or assist in studios. I was working in a bunch of different studios at that time. We got to be friends, and he had recording gear in his living room. A little console, an [Empirical Labs] Distressor, maybe six or seven mics, and a snake. I had a [Shure SM]57, an [Audio-Technica AT]4033, Seventh Circle [Audio N72] mic preamps, and one [Universal Audio] 1176. "Let's rent a room! We could have a little tiny room that we could do overdubs in."
And that was in this building here?
Yeah, upstairs. I had a laptop with a MOTU interface. I would sometimes sync to SMPTE and do overdubs in people's houses. I didn't want to buy in to [Avid] Pro Tools just yet; I was still running Digital Performer. I thought it might be cool to have a room to do that instead of bouncing around to people's houses.
That was the first Crackle & Pop space?
Yeah. It developed over the years. There were several other people who got involved, but it's Andy and I who stuck it out. He's not engineering very much at this time, but he gets involved with the musical side of it and we collaborate musically as well.
How does that work out financially?
We both invested in the build out we did six years ago when we moved down here, and the studio raised some money too. The studio pays for itself, and I get paid separately.
Did you set a base rate that the studio has to make per day?
Exactly. But the studio still owes me and Andy money.
How does gear ownership work?
We've kept track of who owns what. When we purchase something for the studio, then it's like the studio's LLC owns it. The studio has been able to pay for itself, but I'm doing most of the managing of it. I lean on Andy for support whenever I need it. He's good on the tech side, with computers too, and he's really good at helping solve problems.
Studios like ours are two things: It's a place for someone that produces and needs a place to work out of. But it's also available to rent to other engineers and producers.
