There’s a track that you co-wrote on Lily Allen's West End Girl called “Fruityloop.” I did a little research on you, and you started out producing on FruityLoops [FL Studio].
I did. I started producing on FruityLoops. I tried [Steinberg] Cubase for a bit and then ended up in [Apple] Logic. I use Ableton [Live] a little bit now, but mostly Logic.
I am curious about how you made the transition from bedroom producer to dubstep, originally. Would you call it that?
No, not really. I was living in London at that time, and my first releases were on Skream’s [Disfigured Dubz] label, and what I was doing was adjacent to what was going on in the UK. It was like early dubstep, but it wasn't really. I was into artists like Burial, early James Blake, and Mount Kimbie. That was, at that time, considered part of the dubstep scene, and that's so different to what I associate with dubstep, so I can't really think of myself as ever having made that.
How much credence do you give to genre labels?
I feel that's been a blessing and a curse for me. The whole time I've been making music, I feel I never neatly fit into anything. I grew up being such a fan of dance music, electronic music – raving as a teenager – and super into UK club music, but I don't think I ever fit anywhere, neatly, in the dance music scene. That’s really who I am as a producer. That’s why I love working with different artists. I love dipping into different people's worlds, working with them, and then moving onto something else. It’s so fun for me.
It seems you're moving steadily towards the pop world. Do you still continue to add variety?
Producing for other people, it's just whatever. I'm working on crazy dance music with Parris [Goebel], and the Lily [Allen] album is completely different to anything I've done. I've done Jorja Smith, BANKS, and Fletcher, but when I release my own music, that's just for me. I feel like I can have freedom to experiment and make stuff that I would play. That's what I enjoy releasing. When I was releasing music during the pandemic, I wasn't experiencing night life – no one was. At the same time, I had just moved to L.A. to explore producing. I like releasing music, and I'm not a fan of working on stuff and having no control over whether it comes out or not. That’s why I like having a project. At the time, I was trying as a producer, and maybe it swayed more pop because my focus was working on other people's music. But going forward, I don't feel the need to do that for my project as much.
It seems like you lit up a little bit talking about your own music.
Yeah, it's all weirdly the same for me – working on my music or working on music for someone else. They feed each other in such a nice way. I give myself more permission, probably, to experiment and mess around with sounds. That is important for anything I do – having time to play around with the intention of making music that I'd want to release. But sometimes that ends up finding its way into someone else's project. I feel I wouldn't start ideas like that if I wasn't thinking about putting it out for my project. It keeps that playfulness of making music just for the enjoyment of it.
There is that interplay between working on your own music and working with others, but you do seem to genuinely love your role as a collaborator as well. What are your best qualities as a collaborator?
I'm learning more and more to trust my instincts. I think I have a good instinct for hooks. After learning to produce for years and working on my own, I get so inspired working with people that do things that I don't do. It's such a solitary, lonely way to create. I mean, I love it as well. When I'm working with people a lot, it feels amazing to have those days back on my own, just messing around. But when I'm working on my own, I tend to be in the same patterns. The way I make music doesn't shift as much as when I'm getting in with someone else and seeing how they create. I find it inspiring. I love working with other people.
You mentioned hooks being something that you have some skill with, and I've noticed that as I was listening to your work. Repetition is such a key quality in your music. How do you experience repetition in music as a listener, and how does that influence how you incorporate it as a songwriter and producer?
Coming from a background in dance music, it is all about repetition. Applying that way of thinking about composition in pop music is interesting. The dynamic and contrast of where I place something can feel so different. It’s that tension and release. I love that in production. I love that about dance music. Repetition is great.
It can be hard for a certain kind of writer to use as well.
Yeah, it's like simplifying.
What are your favorite ways to convey emotion through the production techniques that you use? Are there certain effects to use to convey maybe sadness or a dissociated quality?
It depends on the song. I don't think I can pinpoint it, because it's all just how something makes me feel when I listen to it. With the Lily album, it was matching the music for what the song was going to be. Every session was like, “We’re writing this song today,” then searching for the thing that felt right to complement that story. I never know until we're trying stuff, and then something feels right.
That seems an organic way to work. You don't have a “bag of tricks.”
Not really. I can't help but fall on certain things. Everyone's palette is formed in some way, and we gravitate towards certain sounds more than others, but I don't think it’s conscious.
You touched on the storytelling aspect of West End Girl. As an album, it has a specific arc to it. Describe your process, as it relates to structuring a story like that.
It was driven by Lily's vision for it. She had that concept and idea from the very first session, and she had already written song names down. Some of them changed, but most of them stayed. We mapped out the days of what songs we were working on, which is different to how I would normally work. It was unique, in the sense of people piecing together something like that. It was made very easy, because Lily had such a clear vision for it. It's different with Parris Goebel, who I'm working with a lot doing her music project. We are trying stuff, and she works fast as well and has a clear idea of what she wants to do, but it's a different process because it's not an album with an overall story. It's more about expressing her creative vision in music. “How do we make this so ‘Parris,’ that it's like, ‘Obviously, that's what it should sound like.’?”
Going back to collaborators, Blue May got you involved in working on West End Girl, and it led to your first executive producer credit.
Yeah, it's so nice. Blue is a really good friend of mine. We were pinching ourselves about this last year. We'd never worked together before that project, but we've been friends for a long time. We were saying, “We need to do some work together. What can we make happen?” He had been wanting to do a Lily record for years. We had good instincts, luck, and things coming together and – rather than sitting back and waiting for it to come our way – we were choosing where we were putting our time and going with things that felt good. There was a risk that the album may not have come out like we wanted, but it's like, "Who cares? We're working with a bunch of people we love and making music we like." With music, take a chance on things and it’ll either come to something or it won't. Your time may as well be spent on things that you like and feel excited about.
That echoes throughout your career: a theme of joy and doing things that are fun. In addition to all of this, you still DJ and host events called Club Kito in L.A.
I love having a party. Having that night has been so fun because it's such an intersection of the pop music scene and electronic music, with DJs coming and playing. It’s been such a fun thing to create the kind of party I'd want to play at or want to be booked at.
Do you handpick the people who are going to be involved in those nights?
A lot of them are friends or someone's in town and they want to come play. It’s such a fun party. Friends will hit me up and say, “I want to come play your party,” and I'll say, “Oh, my god, please come play my party!” I missed having a night like that. When I used to live in London, there were a few parties that I loved going to. It was always not quite a club, but more of a club than a bar. Sometimes I’d go, and I didn't know who was going to jump on and play, but there were always such good music selections. It's another thing that feeds back into making music; experiencing it and having fun with it. Especially when making dance music; you need to go play it. [laughter]
You've got collaborators everywhere, all over the world.
Last night, I was hanging out with a bunch of friends, and they were asking, “How long are you in Oz for?” I replied, “I don't know, but if [I’m here] a minute I'll probably come to Melbourne.” Everyone was saying, “Come make music!” And I'm like, “Okay, cool!” I'll come make music with Mallrat and Cub Sport and The Jungle Giants… all the Aussies!
I'm sure they're so excited when you're in town.
Oh, it's so fun. Many of them I see in L.A. all the time anyway, but last night – having a big bunch of fun Aussie artists hanging out and celebrating each other – it was good.
That's cool. Do you want to talk about any gear that you're really feeling right now?
I'm so in-the-box – just plug-ins. I have a nice vocal chain now, and I feel like I'm getting better and better at using it. For the first time, I have a Tube-Tech and a preamp, and I’m actually using a physical chain as opposed to throwing on a bunch of plug-ins. I'm such a software girl. One of these days I'll probably start trying to get some synths, but I don't even know if I will.
Hey, there's nothing wrong with in-the-box!
Yeah. You can make music anywhere, I suppose.
