You like to use a good room space to get sound on the whole band. That's one of the things you're kind of known for. Steve's [Albini] also kind of known for it too, using the acoustic space to get really good drum sounds and stuff like that, as opposed to just close mic'ing.
The first time I heard a record Steve had recorded I was really blown away by it. It was probably the Pixies record or the Wedding Present or Jesus Lizard. I learned a lot about that "live-room" type of recording from him and then I guess I've taken it in my own direction. But the basic recording methodology... the way I record using the room sound... I learned it from Steve. I guess that's sort of lame, but I don't know what to tell you. He's been my engineering mentor. Those records sounded really great to me and I wanted to know how to get those sounds. So I asked him how he did it and then tried to do what he described as best as I could. But of course it doesn't come out quite the same. Over the phone I would ask him how to tune drums, or which mics to use and where to put them. Obviously, these sorts of things can't be adequately described over the phone, so what I did became my version of the "Steve-method". I would try to do what he described, but would use my ears to guide me and figure out what worked best — what sounded good to me. I will still ask Steve questions and we'll discuss different things we've each been trying lately. I suppose I've moved from apprentice up to colleague. In the beginning, I would do it all by rote. Now I understand why I'm using a certain mic and where I'm putting it and can make reasoned decisions about all this. But the basic recording method is still very similar.
More just the approach?
It's more not being afraid to use plenty of the ambiance mics in the mix and really paying attention to the live sound of the drum set. I assume you're mostly talking about the drums?
That's where I hear it. It seems to be on other things too.
It has to do with paying a lot of attention to getting the drums tuned right, having a good sounding room, and knowing where to put the kit in the room.
Do you ever feel like you're kind of in the shadow of Steve in a way. Recording wise or... You always get lumped in with him.
When I first started doing recording it really served me well. My association with Steve really helped. What can I say? I've learned so much from him. He's a really great engineer. He's a really great teacher. When I was first working in Chicago, it definitely got me more work than I would have had if I was just sitting in Boston telling people I was a recording engineer. That helped out, so I can't really complain about it. Yet today people will come up to me, people I know, friends of mine, and ask, "So, are you still working with Steve?" What do you mean working with Steve? I have never worked with Steve. I once worked for him, but that was six years ago. He and I have never made a record together.
Besides Shellac, but you're not...
Right, but we have never collaborated as engineers on a project. I was there for the Nirvana record, but I was mainly there in case something blew up. Some people assume that we are tag-team partners, or something.
Do you ever get to do pre-production with bands?
I don't think I ever have.
It'd be nice, wouldn't it?
I don't know. I've never done it so it's hard to say. It would be interesting to try that more involved pre-production thing where I work with the band before the actual recording. Right now for me, pre-production would be making sure all the gear worked right and making sure there were no hums or buzzes. Make sure the amps work and the drums work and aren't squeaking and don't have parts falling off them. I was recording this band a few weeks ago and three of the tension rods on the bass drum didn't work.
They were just all stripped?
Yeah.
No one noticed, huh?
No. It was a bummer. But with the drums, another thing I have to keep in mind is the cash situation for the band. If there's a label paying for it I'll say, "Hey, you should get top and bottom heads for the toms. You should get new heads for everything." If they're coming in to do two songs in one day and they're paying out of their pocket I'll say, "Lets just use what's already on the drums." If they want to spend a little I'll say, "Okay, we'll do the top heads." You know, you have to balance it all out. But if the budget's available, I try to get them to get all new drumheads. Although I usually prefer the Ambassadors, certain people sound better with Emperors. If they're hitting so hard that the Ambassadors are just completely deformed within an hour, then I'll get them to use Emperors. But the Ambassador, because it's a single-ply head, resonates louder and longer — it doesn't dampen itself. If you can get the heads tuned to the resonance of the drum shell, when you whack that thing it excites the shell and everything and the whole thing is loud and full sounding.
When we were discussing preproduction you brought up a good point, that if the gear sounds good, part of your battle is already won as far as recording.
It's true. Sometimes people ask, "Oh, do you have amps at the studio?" or "We're gonna borrow a drum kit," or "We're gonna borrow an amp for the recording." That always freaks me out a little bit. I ask, "Aren't you used to your sound?" Or, "Haven't you been working on a sound that you like in the practice space for the last year getting ready for this record? Why are you all of a sudden going to change things for this record?" That always seems silly to me.
They might be uncomfortable using the new gear, too, which might throw off the performance.
Yeah, or they'll say, "When we get to the studio we can work on guitar sounds." I'm like, "Look, if you haven't already worked on your guitar sound, I don't know what help I'm going to be. Do you want me to stand in front of the amp and turn the treble up and down for you?" I'm talking about bands that have a very limited budget. They can't afford much time in the studio, so I don't want them to waste it trying to find some mystery "perfect" guitar sound. It's about efficient use of the expensive studio time.
The idea that people should come in ready to go...
The bands that we record are BANDS. They operate as a band. They have a vision for what they want the music to sound like. They want it to sound like what it sounds like in the practice space. They've been working on the songs for a year and I assume that they want the same guitar sound they've been using. I'm surprised when they don't seem to like that sound and want to come up with a new one in the studio
Looking at the guitar and then looking at you and saying, "Does it sound good?"
"I don't know. Does it sound good? You tell me. It's your record."
Do you think that bands that want to record the way you like to record are finding you? It doesn't seem like you're going to be hammering them into doing it a certain way.
Of course not. I'll record any way they want. And not all the bands I record want to have that live big room sound anyhow. A lot of them do, but I record a lot that don't work that way. I record albums where they want it to be more separate and dead sounding and not as real sounding — strange sounds, nonrealistic sounds. When people hire an engineer they obviously are calling someone because they have heard records he has done and they're like, "Wow, this guy sounds like the engineer for me." So, of course, if they've heard other records I've done they'd hire me like they'd hire you based on records you've done.
Yeah, I think like The Kung Fu's definitely sought you out.
They said they e-mailed me as a gag. They didn't think anything would come of it. They thought it was funny. They e-mailed me asking, "Can you record us?" And I e-mailed back, "Yeah, sure. When?"
What did they think? That because they've seen your name on records they own you were unreachable or something?
Apparently. It completely blows my mind when people tell me this. I don't have lots of work, but at the same time, for some reason, some bands just assume I won't record them. Or that I'm too busy. Or that I'm too expensive. Or that I only approach bands — bands aren't allowed to approach me about recording. I don't know where in the world this came from. I have never approached a band to record them. I get my work from word of mouth or people just calling me up out of the blue. When I hear that someone's afraid to call me or assumes they can't call me, I can't even believe it.
I think there's a lot of hero worship going on in rock n' roll. Not that you're someone's hero, but they might think that you're in a different league cause your name is on a few records they really like.
Yeah, but they don't think about the records I've done that they would probably hate. Sometimes people e-mail me saying, "I'd like to send you my tape and hear what you think about it." I'm flattered that they'd be interested in my opinion, but I'm not a music critic or an A&R guy. Why in the world do they want to know what I, personally, think of their music? They don't know what my taste is like. They assume that my taste corresponds to the records they own that I recorded. They assume that I've hand-selected those bands, and if I like their tape, they must be as good as these bands that they love. My personal taste has nothing to do with who I record. What they don't seem to realize is: 1. Those bands all picked me to record them. I didn't choose them, and 2. For every Rodan or Archer's of Loaf record I've worked on, I've done 100 other bands that they'd hate. They don't think about that part. Or the fact that I'm a Sheryl Crow fan, for instance.
You don't do every single job that anyone talks to you about?
I do. I don't recall ever turning one down.
Really? You've been lucky then, in a way.
I've been really lucky. I've enjoyed almost every single record I've worked on, even though most of the bands I had never heard of before I recorded them. I think a lot of it has to do with being in a band and making a lot of friends over the years. When I first started recording I was friends with the guys in Sebadoh, so I got to record them a little bit. I met the guys in Polvo and later ended up doing an album with them. It was one of the first full LPs that I recorded. It was just because I'd met them a bunch of times and really liked them.
That Thinking Fellers EP [Admonishing The Bishops] was one of the first things you did, wasn't it.
Yeah, like the... the third thing I recorded. The Volcano Suns had played with them a few times and I had mixed them live on the radio in Boston once. I didn't totally know what I was doing in the studio yet during that EP session, but acted very confidently, like I had everything under control. I went to see them play the night after we finished and got really bummed out. They sounded so great live, I thought I had totally blown it in the studio. But I listened to that EP recently and thought, "Ahhhh, this IS ok, isn't it?" I think it was the very first time I recorded at Steve's. That was when I first moved out there to work for him as his studio tech. He hired me with the understanding that if the studio wasn't booked I could book bands in there too.
That's great. That was at his house?
It was a bungalow on the northwest side of Chicago.
That's crazy.
It worked out great. Hundreds of great sounding records came out of that house.
Apparently.
I don't know if I could do that. I don't know if I could have my house be the studio. The basement was the studio and the attic was the control room. Steve lived on the first floor. There was a kitchen, a living room, an office and a bathroom. And when a band was playing in the basement the whole first floor would be vibrating. Gratings would be going [makes loud vibrating grate noise].
Out of the bands that you've done, The Rachel's was something that I heard that was really different from the rock stuff.
Yeah I love recording The Rachel's.
Did you do a lot of that live? Or are you doing it in pieces. It seemed like it would be done in pieces.
No, most of it's live. But there's this new Rachel's album coming out where the recording is a little different. It's called Selenography. I know The Rachel's because I recorded the Rodan record. That's been my connection to a bunch of Louisville bands. People from Rodan are in Sonora Pine and June of 44, who I recorded. I also helped out on a Shipping News album and I've done a bunch for the Rachel's. Jason, from Rodan and the Rachel's, and I get along really well. He is really interested in recording and has picked up a lot. He's really good at it. He did all the Shipping News basic recording. So anyway, for the Rachel's we need to get a good piano and a real studio space to get the basic thing recorded. If it's a song that has piano we'll record it all live at the studio. A new thing we did on this last session was to put rough mixes down to 2 tracks of a DA-88 that those guys bought. Then they went home to Louisville and filled both their DA- 88s up with overdubs. We also would do overdubs onto the 24-track. So when we finally mixed this record at Steve's studio, Electrical, we used almost every fader on his 48 channel Neotek console as well as the automation. It was the only automated mix I'd ever done and it was necessary. We had the 24-track and both DA-88s running on some songs and on other songs we had only two channels going.
Oh my god.
The Rachel's is really fun to record because the instrumentation from song to song is radically different. It goes from string octet to solo harpsichord to piano, viola, cello, electric guitar, drumset. One of my best engineered records is a Rachel's record called Music for Egon Schiele. We recorded it at the University of Louisville in a recital hall on one of those Otari 1/2" 8-tracks. It was piano, cello, and viola. I just used six mics. I love the way that thing sounds.
Was it a good sounding space?
Yeah, it was a huge recital hall. It had a beautiful piano, as well. One of the best I've ever heard.
How long have you've been doing recording as a full time gig, just trying to get that to work?
I guess when I moved to Chicago, which was about seven years ago. It wasn't really full time at first. At first I was an employee of Steve's — his studio tech. So when I recorded bands the money went into the studio and I still got my normal weekly paycheck. I suppose you'd call that a house engineer type job. I worked there for about a year and a half until I had too much recording work and couldn't keep up with the tech work anymore. I couldn't keep everything fixed. So I thought it would be best if he got a real full time tech guy and I went freelance on the recording.
Have you worked at a lot of different studios since then?
Yeah. But I prefer working at Steve's place because I had so much to do with it and still do. It feels like home. In his new building I did all the audio systems design: the wiring, layout and design, and patchbays and everything. I also designed the power system — the AC system. It's a balanced power system with some fancy grounding.
How did you learn all this?
I worked for a studio designer and I learned a lot of this from him. He designs studios, he's an acoustician, and he's a brilliant audio electronics guy. You can give him any piece of audio gear and he will make it sound a hundred times better. The other half I picked up from a radio station engineer named Grady Moates.
Who is the studio designer?
Bob Alach from Wellesley, Mass. He has a company called Alactronics. I worked for him for a couple of years. I did some architectural and electrical drafting for him. I learned a lot about studio wiring from him. He does recording studios, video editing suites, TV station audio, what else... control rooms, auditoriums, sound reinforcement, listening rooms, mastering labs and things. So I got a lot of the wiring knowledge from him. A lot of the systems knowledge from him. I still call him whenever I do this kind of work.
He knows it pretty well then?
Oh yeah, he's a brilliant man and a good friend. He designed one of the best sounding control rooms I have ever been in.
Where's that?
It's gone now, but it was at this studio in Boston called Squid Hell. It was in a house. A competing studio called the zoning board and had them shut down. The sheriff came down and made them take their gear out. All because this other studio was losing business to them. So they're moving. They're buying a building and starting over.
And it was a great sounding control room?
The control room was unbelievable. I was blown away.
I talked to Jack Endino [#13] about moving from studio to studio, keeping consistency. The problem he's found are that monitors and rooms are so different. What method do you use to get consistency?
I just read that interview and I saw that he carries around a spectrum analyzer. I've been wanting to do that for a while now. But the one that I want, this crazy Danish model, is pretty expensive. I have speakers that I carry around that I love.
What do you use?
These home hi-fi audiophile speakers. They're B&Ws — Model 805. They're the baby version of the big famous 801s, which are what all these classical music audiophile geeks use.
Are they pretty flat?
I don't know, they just sound right. I mixed on NS10s for a really long time, and Tannoys and lots of other speakers. I had these AR home bookshelf speakers that I mixed on for a while too. With every single other speaker I mixed on I always had to tell the band, "Okay so you make it sound good on these, but you should have a little too much guitar." Or, "Don't worry that there's no low end. Trust me it's there."
Right, I say that all the time.
So when I first heard these, Shellac was at Abbey Road [#11]. We were using them and I was just blown away by how they sounded. I just tried to mix things to sound good on these speakers and the mixes translated everywhere. The mastering engineers didn't have to do as much to my work. The songs I mixed on them sounded good in a car, my home stereo, on a boombox, and to the band when they went home. It translated everywhere, so I'm like, "I'm buying a pair". I bought a pair, I bought a road case and they come with me.
Are they expensive?
They're sort of expensive. I bought mine in the UK where they're made, so I don't know what they cost over here. Probably a thousand bucks or something.
But if it's something you that can really help you.
They really help me a lot. The other thing about them that's so amazing is that you can sit there and listen to them all day and there's no ear fatigue. If I listened to NS10s for a couple of hours, I would just walk out of the control room and be like, "Don't talk. Don't make any sound, I don't want to hear anything. My head hurts." It was really draining.
I like the NS10 at low volume for mixing. Check my mixes on them kind of quiet. There's that midrange bump, it kind of helps me hear what's going on placement-wise. Then I use my Tannoys.
I've mixed with Tannoys, I don't have a problem with them. I've always wondered why there are studio monitors and home stereo speakers. Why are there two different lines made by two different groups of people? Why wouldn't you mix on speakers that the people at home will listen on? I could never figure that one out. I guess part of it is studio monitors are more robust — they can take higher levels. Maybe that's all there is to it. So that's what I use. Home hi-fi monitors work great for me. You know when you hit the wrong button and your speakers squeal, or go Ka-blam! Or you blow a tweeter on an NS10? I've had those same types of sounds come through mine and they've never even blinked. They can take more punishment for some reason. So I carry around those, and my microphones. That's all I really care about.
What mics do you like to bring?
I have a briefcase with pretty much all of my mics and I usually end up using all of them.
You have some Coles I heard.
I have one Coles mic, which I don't use that often. I love it on strings and it sounds awesome on electric guitars. But it can't really handle the chug-chug-chug guitar low end. They fart out, so I don't use them all the time. I've started using the BK-5 ribbon mic from RCA on electric guitars a lot.
Where do you find stuff at?
The first time I did any work for Steve I was still living in Boston and I flew out and wired his studio. It was long before he ever asked me to work for him full time. I wired his studio and he paid me by giving me a batch of starter mics. A little starter kit. I think the [Coles] STC 4038 was part of that starter kit. He just finds used gear, he's a real good scrounger.
I was wondering if you had any suggestion for getting a good electric bass sound for rock albums. I just want to pick your brain, see if you had any suggestion or ideas for recording that. Mics, DI, not DI, amp settings, where to put the amp...
I usually spend the least amount of time on the bass. It always seems to sound okay.
How do you do that?
I rarely use a DI. There's one mic that I use on bass almost every time. It's this Beyer mic that they don't make anymore: model 380. A large diaphragm figure-of-eight mic. Because it's figure-of-eight, it has a really super- duper proximity effect. So when you get it in really close you get really good super bottom. I usually use two mics. If they have two cabinets, I'll put one on each cabinet. If they have one cabinet, I'll put them both on the one. The other mic I'll use is either a D112, or an AT 4033. If the bass player has a cabinet that has a bunch of different sized drivers I'll put the 380 on the biggest one and then put some small dynamic or condenser mic (maybe a 451 or a 57) on the horn, or in the ten. But even when they have that, most of the time I end up using just the 18 or the 15. There's usually enough high end out of that, you don't even need the other ones. Unless they bi-amp, which just never seems to work at all.
Do you compress to tape?
The bass? Not usually, but if it's called for.
The amp is going to be compressing it a bit anyway.
It depends on how loud they're playing. Lots of times there's speaker compression. When I play there's a lot of speaker compression.
Push it really hard.
I just like that mic, the 380. That's another one I got from Steve. They have a new version of it called the TGX 50.
Have you tried that?
Yes. It sounds a little different. I think for certain basses it will sound better. It's a little brighter and I think it's a hypercardioid.
See, I wanted some brilliant answers here, but I'm just getting, "Oh I put a mic on it." The bass usually sounds good on the things you've done. I like the sound of it. Maybe it's just bugging me. You know how everyone listening to their own recordings. You always want to be better.
I know — believe me. Maybe I just turn the bass up louder?
You're always struggling to become a better engineer and to get better sounds that you're happier with.
If I'm unhappy with the way the bass, or any instrument sound is going, I go down there with them and I adjust the amp. If it sounds right while standing in front of the amp, but wrong in the control room, I'll adjust the amp to try to get it to sound right on tape. It's always going to sound different when you're comparing the bass out of a 400 watt 15" speaker to the bass out of the near field monitors on the console.
I've done that a lot, but maybe I should just do that more.
I'm always saying, "Let's avoid EQ later, let's use the EQ on your amp." That's what I try to do. Yeah, it's more trouble later to do. I just said the 380 was good because you could get it in close. But I don't put it in that close. I try to keep the amps and the mics a little ways away on guitar and bass cabinets.
Like a foot or a couple of feet?
I guess around a foot for bass. Between 6 inches and a foot for bass. Between 1 and 4 feet for the guitar. I never put them in really close. I've never seen a guitar player play with his head against the amp and say, "That sounds right."
Where do you get enough room to do that? Like when you're setting up in Electrical Audio.
Oh there's always plenty of room.
What if there's a drum kit in the same room?
I've almost never had the drums in the same room with the guitar. When I record I make sure I can put all the amps in one room and all the drums in another room. Maybe a couple of times I've had them in the same room.
That gives you more room to get space.
That way you can get ambiance on the drums. I don't care as much what kind of room the guitars are in, because they're more closely mic'd. When I did this June of 44 record, the latest one that just came out, we had a lot of fun with the rooms. I'm used to having the drums in the huge room and the guitars in the dead room. So we did half the songs that way and then we swapped. We had all these room mics way far away from the guitar amps, and the drums had the super dead sound. A lot of the drums were the two- mic setup: kick and overhead. I love being able to do stuff like that.
Which sound did you like better?
It depended on the style of the song. We were talking before about the ambiance thing — about the drums in the big room. The way I usually do it is I have close mics on everything. And then I have a pair of ambiance mics away from the drums. I have some B&Ks that I always bring with me, and I put those on the floor. So they're like fancy PZMs. I just put them on the floor and that's the reverb for the drum kit. Sometimes I don't even have an overhead mic. The cymbals get picked up in the tom mics and in the floor mics. Instead of a drum overhead mic, I like to use a stereo mic looking at the kit. Kind of where your head would be if you were standing out in front, for the cymbals.
I find I like the sound of a mic looking at the kit too. Even at a lower level. About that level looking at the drums. Getting a good sound there, sort of like the natural sound. Like if you were at a club looking at the drum kit. There's a sound there. Have you ever put a mic behind a drummer?
Yeah, using their heads to block the snare sometimes.
You can get some interesting sounds there too.
There is no one way to do it every time. There are set-ups I've found that work for me. So I'll start out with certain mics positioned the same, but then I'll experiment with a few. On this one I'll try the drum mic behind the head, this one I'll use spaced cardioids, the next one I use spaced omnis, the next I use an X/Y stereo mic overhead and the next one I'll use an M-S or a Blumlein. Just to be different every time.
Depends on the song a lot?
No, it's often just random experimentation. Or the overall type and speed of the band's songs. Or sometimes, when the drummer starts asking me to turn up or turn down certain cymbals, I'll need to use more and closer cymbal mics.
What's the latest stuff you've done?
I've been recording this band called Plush, have you heard of them? This guy from Chicago... Liam Hayes... it's his thing. Liam likes to record in an older style. He bought himself this 1/2" 4-track, an Ampex 440, that he carts around. I helped him rebuild the thing and made it sound pretty good. So we cart it around and record on location. We recorded at a film sound-stage. Very Twickenham feeling, like Let it Be. We recorded in his practice space — we recorded at this public radio station studio — we recorded on a rooftop in downtown Chicago. We recorded at all these different places. Steve's recorded him in a huge theater. The mic'ing is really minimal and I try to follow Liam's "old- school" aesthetic. I was using Sennheiser 441s, and would put one that's sort of the ride and floor tom mic, and one that's sort of the other drums and the crash. And then a D- 12 or RE-20 on the bass drum. It sounds really good with just the three mics.
What kind of line up is it? Is it changing on all the songs?
We're doing the basic tracks: guitar, bass, and drums. Then he's going to do a reduction mix from the 4-track onto this 1" 8-track that Steve has, and do overdubs at Steve's. That's the plan.
I loved the single that he did before.
I recorded this band, Idlewild, in England. It was really fun. I think I'm going to do more work for them this Fall.
Did you get to fly to England to do that?
I got to fly to England and I got to record at AIR studios. This band has a little money. This is the first band I've ever recorded with money.
On a major?
They're on Food, which is part of EMI. So we recorded at AIR. It was one of the best studios I've ever worked at in my life — the best console that I've ever used.
That's the place where George Martin...
Yeah, it's George Martin's studio. It's amazing. It's the best drum sound I've gotten — the best drum room I've ever used. They have a custom Neve console. It has the mic preamps out at the mic panels but you control the gain at the console. It's amazing — built in the '70s — the predecessor to the Focusrite consoles. It just sounds unbelievable. Such a great studio. That session was fun. I just recorded a band from Belgium called JFMuck — they were cool.
Where did you do that?
At Steve's in the B Studio — the small studio. I don't know. I haven't done that much lately. I recorded this band in Boston called the Wicked Farleys. I liked that a lot and they were really cool. I did some records earlier this year that are just coming out now. The Rachel's, June of 44, and another Arcwelder record. I was really excited about all three bands because I'd recorded each of them a couple of times before. I'm a huge fan of all three.
I think it's a good sign if an engineer/producer gets the same bands back to work with. It builds a good relationship, you know you enjoy working together.
You build up a good rapport, a good studio rapport. So you don't have to talk as much and you know what people want to do. You can get more done in the same amount of time. You become really close friends with the people as well. That's why I like this whole thing. I like playing in a band, and I like meeting all these people. I was the A/V geek running the projector in elementary school, so it all fits together. I like plugging in cables and running tape recorders and turning knobs.
Have you ever thought of opening your own place?
I have always wanted to.
What kind of place would you want? Would you want to convert a house or...
I'm looking for a house in Chicago right now. In Chicago they have houses where in the back yard there's another house called a coach- house. I'm trying to find one of those to have a small place like Steve's basement used to be: a small inexpensive place. I love recording at Steve's, but a lot of the bands I record can't afford it and I have to find cheaper places in Chicago. And I'm usually disappointed with the gear or something at these inexpensive studios. It's hard to go from Steve's to almost any other studio — his is so great, it's hard to compare... When Steve had it in his house, it was really small, but the gear was top flight and the place was done right. It was this super fancy studio crammed into a house. I would like to be able to have a cheap place like that.
Do you have a lot of gear that you've picked up over time?
No. I have a 24-track that I bought from Mitch Easter. I've got all my mics and I have a little bit of outboard gear — I have some compressors that I like.
Would you have to get some kind of mixer?
I'd have to get a mixer. I've been really thinking a lot lately about building a console. I don't know if I'm going to do it or not, but I have a layout I've been working on. I've been thinking about building a mixer that's basically nothing but faders and pan pots. Maybe four busses, a high pass filter, and 2 sends, with a decent master section and plenty of flexibility in the patchbay. But mainly making it so I can playback the 24- track. I don't use that much EQ, so if I had a couple of outboard EQs I could just patch those in. The simpler the console, the more time and money I can spend on making the audio path sound great. I'm getting inspired lately because a bunch of the people that work for Steve have all been getting into building electronics projects. This guy Bill Skibbe has built himself his own copy of an LA-2A. It sounds amazing. I think he's now building a bunch for the studio. It's really inspiring. I want to buy some from him now.
Hey if he'll start making them, you should. If something does work good you should use it. Like the Distressor's a good piece of gear.
I love the Distressor.
But people are like, "It's all IC's and shit." But if it works..
Oh I'm more than happy to use modern gear. I've got no problem with it if it sounds good.
Have you tried the RNC (Really Nice Compressor)?
Yep, Steve has four of them. I used it for the first time two weeks ago and I was really blown away.
I have three and I use them all the time.
I was really shocked. I even wired them into the studio, and I didn't try them for six months.
They're really fast.
They just look wrong. They look like they can't be good. But they are great, just like Audio Technica makes so many really great cheap mics now.
Pro 37R.
Tell me about it. I had never heard of it and I just tried it out at Supernatural, and I thought it sounded great. All the 40 series: 4051s, and 4033s, are great. You know it's a 451 and a 414, but for less than half the price. They sound great. I've got one of these modern UREI VCA based compressors that I really like but never see in studios. So I just carry it around with me. I don't think anyone thinks they're special. But it works really great for me.
I think one of the things people forget about gear, is that if you know what it does and how to use it well, it's more valuable then something that is supposed to be really good that you don't know how to use. The first time I had a compressor I didn't know what to do with it.
I think most of us are hip to the "vintage gear" issue, in our realm. It's not even an issue. We know we don't need that stuff. If I record a great singer on an RE20 for vocals as opposed to the million dollar U47 or C12, when it's on your stereo at home, you can't tell which one it was recorded with.
If it works right, sounds right, and the performance is there, who cares. I have a Manley tube mic. I love that mic, but I've started using RE20 for lead vocals.
Those are great male rock vocal mics.
I've been trying a lot of different things out. It's nice to get more loose when putting things up, just to see what happens.
It's totally fun to record at Steve's because he has hundreds of microphones. It's fun to go, "Oh, I wonder what this old Altec mic would sound like on the guitar?" It's fun to have that option. But when I go to a studio that doesn't have anything, I'll start with the basics in my briefcase, and mix with what they've got there and it always turns out fine. You can always use 414s for overheads... you don't need to have the Schoeps or the Neumanns.
Yeah 414s are mics that don't even come up often enough in interviews.
You can use them for anything. I think something Steve is well known for is using a lot of ribbon mics, and I tend to do that too. I've got a lot of Beyer mics that I carry with me. I love using ribbon mics on electric guitars. But lately I've been using them for overheads, and always for strings. Whatever string instrument it is, I'll use a ribbon mic on it... any horn too.
I don't even have one.
You can get any of those Beyers new for like $500. That and the RCA BK-5 are the best guitar mics. I love the M500s — they are so great. But all those Beyer ribbon mics: the 160, 130, 260... those are all really great sounding mics. You don't need to get a Coles. Everyone's like, "Oh, I have to have a Coles. I have to have a Coles." Shut up and buy a Beyer. It's a ribbon mic, it sounds great, and they still make them.
The 201, the dynamic mic, is really good too.
Right. I have one of those.
I used them on toms. Man...They're great drum mics.
I think Steve uses them on snare. I've seen him use the 201 and a SM98 taped together. My favorite snare drum mic, lately, has been the SM98, by itself. I like it a lot. It's the talk-show drummer's mic. It's on all the drum kits on talk shows because they are really tiny. They can mount on the rim. I guess the other topic I was thinking about was just sort of general recording ideas — recording theories. I'm starting to understand that I'm more into not being in total control of everything. When you herd cattle you don't have control of every single steer: where it's going, what direction it's in. You're just kind of herding them — keeping it all together. When some guys record, they want to be in control of every single sound, like a puppeteer or something. I'm totally into the herding — the guiding. Trying to make what you've got all work together.
You don't need to think about every single detail.
People want to take every single sound and run it through a compressor and EQ the shit out of it and just beat it into submission — control and shape every single mic.
I like random things, and then you pull them together and make something out of it.
Exactly. I'll put 2 or 3 mics on a guitar amp and have the guitarist listen to them. As long as they're all useful, they don't each need to be some idealized perfect sound. If one sounds like shit, I'll change it, but I don't sit there and obsess about distance from the cone and mic angle. I throw them up at sort of random distances and see what I come up with. And then just deal with what I get, as long as nothing sounds like total crap. It makes it more interesting. I work with whatever I end up with. It's sort of a challenge to work with what you've got.
Accidental discoveries become part of the sound. It creates more variety.
Right. When people make funny sounds or mistakes, I try to get them to keep them but they almost never want to. These moments are usually really memorable things when they end up in the final mix. There aren't cool little mistakes to remember when everything is made "perfect". When I was in the Volcano Suns I learned so much from those guys at Fort Apache, Sean Slade and Paul Kolderie. Most of the basics about recording and doing sound I learned from this other engineer, Carl Plaster, who also worked at the Fort and was a great live sound guy. I would ask Carl a million questions. Carl taught me the nuts and bolts of how all the shit works. Then when the Suns recorded, I watched Sean and learned a ton about studio recording from him. So I had all this basic knowledge from these guys, and then we recorded our last album with Steve. That's where he and I became friends. That was the next step. After watching Steve and talking to him a lot I sort of said, "Ohhhh, here's a whole new batch of information about recording I've learned." All the good engineers I know are guys who've played in bands. They learn it by being recorded themselves and then saying, "Hey, I can do this". And then they start recording their friends' bands.
Yeah, I can't think of very many examples of good engineers who didn't learn that way.
I always get e-mails from people or questions at Shellac shows where people ask me about going to recording school. All I can ever tell them is: "I can't name one engineer who's any good who went to recording school. "
I never realized I was going to fall into this until I was in my thirties.
I never thought I would. I thought I would do it for fun. I was in bands and I would record people on a reel to reel 4-track for fun. And that was good enough. I'm still shocked that I now do this as my full time job, and I barely do it full time. In the summer of '98 I had almost no work for 6 or 7 months. I was completely broke. People would be like, "What? You don't have any work? You're Bob Weston. Blah blah blah."
They don't know how hard this is.
We don't do it for the money. We do it 'cause we're music fans and we just really enjoy making records. If you really enjoy your work, it seems like you tend not to get paid as much as if you don't enjoy your job. That's the trade-off. The people who make a shit-load of money don't seem to enjoy their work as much as the people who don't make any money. Part of your pay is truly enjoying your work and getting something other than cash out of it.
