You started out doing recordings in your bedroom. What gear did you use?
My first introduction to being interested in music was when I was eight years old. MTV and VH1 were huge in our lives. Millennials, right? In the early 2000s, I would watch all these music videos on repeat before school. One of them was “Maps” by Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and it was so captivating. I remember hearing the intro and thinking, "I want to play guitar." I told my mom, and for my eighth birthday she bought me a nylon-string guitar. I learned Green Day and Blink-182 songs on that guitar. When I was 10, I started playing trumpet. Everyone told me I couldn’t play because it was what the boys did. That started me down a path of doing things just because I wanted to. When I was 12, I remember getting interested in recording. I got all my content off of YouTube at the time. I was watching documentaries on Timbaland and Justin Timberlake, Blink-182, and Tegan and Sara’s [Tape Op #152] The Con, along with Pharrell [Williams] and Chad Hugo studio clips, and a ton of behind-the-scenes footage. Another one I remember is the Feist documentary for The Reminder, showing behind-the-scenes footage of her recording in France with her producers and band. That’s where I learned she sang through a mic into a Twin Reverb. And I’d listen to Death Cab for Cutie [#19] records and think, “How did they make that sound?” When I was 12, I had a Dell laptop. I had a webcam mic attached to an 1/8-inch cable, so it sounded terrible. And I downloaded Audacity – because that’s just what there was at the time – and I started making songs and putting them on MySpace. I made terrible songs and covers. I’d cover “New Slang” by The Shins [#39], and I didn’t even know what a metronome was, so everything was extremely out of time. Then my dad saw how interested I was in recording, and he took me to Guitar Center and bought me Sony Acid [DAW] and an SM58-style USB mic, which also sounded terrible. I did not have great equipment. But I remember thinking, “Oh my god, this is so awesome. I’m recording.” I would play Death Cab for Cutie songs and record over them. That’s how I learned to play along and start coming up with my own ideas.
That's a great way to learn.
Yeah, it was like, "Let’s see what other people are doing," and then try to mimic that exactly. I didn’t know it was a good technique; I was doing it out of pure obsession and curiosity. And it still feels the same.
There’s no end to how much there is to learn. I started out the same way. The first thing I ever recorded was in [Apple] GarageBand, using my laptop’s built-in mic.
When I was first learning, I was pirating a lot, and I was also buying CDs at Barnes & Noble. There was a constant cycle of consuming as much music as I could. I can’t believe how much I was listening back then, but I’m grateful for it, because it's helped so much with inspiration and influences now. I was recording on that weird setup in middle school. When I got to high school, my music teacher, Steve Ernest, became a huge hero of mine. He taught ensemble jazz, was a trumpet player, and also taught [Avid] Pro Tools. He’d catch me in the band room after school recording by myself. I didn’t want to go home; I wanted to stay there, listen, play, and keep working. He even let me take the [Apple] iMacs home over breaks, which probably wasn’t allowed, but it made a huge difference. Eventually, I moved into GarageBand and got a Blue Yeti [microphone]. The first time I heard a condenser mic, it sounded incredible. After that, I started building a small mic collection. I saved up, worked a bunch of shifts, and bought a [Shure] SM57 and a [Focusrite] Scarlett interface. That’s what I used for my first two records, along with some Waves plug-ins. Around this time, I dabbled in different DAWs like [Steinberg's] Cubase and Reason before feeling comfortable in [Apple] Logic Pro X. I briefly used a Yamaha AW16G when I wanted to record outside of a computer for my own demos and for songs with my first band, Summer Peaks. It was a portable 16-channel DAW with a CD burner built in. I learned about menu diving and how to create with limitations. I put my first record [Turn Into] on Bandcamp in 2015, and it started getting some attention. That eventually led to me getting signed. Polyvinyl [Record Co.] released my next record, Everybody Works, in 2017, and that year was huge for me. I remember feeling pretty overwhelmed. It was a lot of attention and a lot of work.
During the pandemic, you stepped away from your own music and started focusing on producing, engineering, and mixing for other artists. What was that experience like? Did you intentionally take a break to work on something different, or did it just happen naturally? Were you feeling burnout at the time?
It was a mixture. I definitely needed a mental health break. Touring isn’t exactly a sustainable environment when you’re in your early 20s. During that time friends started reaching out, asking me to record them. I didn’t even think I was good enough for that, and I didn’t charge anyone. Most of them were friends in Oakland and San Francisco who liked how my records sounded. That sparked my interest, because I realized I don’t have to tour all the time. I can do production work and other music-related things that don’t require being on the road and wasting money. I had done five years of touring, and I experienced that era of my life as fully as I could. But I felt burnt out by the end of it. I was also learning about the album cycle process: make a record, release it in six months to a year, and then tour for two years. You’re expected to operate like a machine, and – on top of that – you have to maintain a social media presence. It’s even more intense now. In 2020, like a lot of people, I was supposed to have a big year. I had plans to go to Mexico, the Philippines, and do a big Asia tour. But the pandemic gave me time to rethink what I wanted from being a musician. It ended up being the perfect moment to focus on producing and engineering full-time. I put my head down, taught myself a lot, and invested in gear. I got BAE preamps and a new mic collection. I had to learn how to use the right mics – not that there’s a single correct way, but I had to figure out what worked best in my own setup. I ended up selling my Coles [4038 microphones] because they didn’t sound right in my room. I bought a Neve 54 broadcast console. It’s one of the last broadcast channels they made in the '80s. I was always so interested in consoles at recording studios. I found this one on Reverb.com, owned by Christian Wargo, a member of Fleet Foxes. From there, we would email back and forth talking about gear. That introduced me to the world of pro audio and learning about mic pres and analog distortion. The Neve is such an amazing distortion box.
Getting a new piece of gear can be inspiring. Did that change your workflow or approach to recording or mixing?
The workflow changed a lot from just plugging into my interface. It also introduced me to other things, like [digital/analog] converters.
Yeah. What converters are you using now?
I’m using UA [Universal Audio], but when I print mixes I use the BURL B2 Bomber. And when I’m tracking with one or two mics, it’s going through the BURL. I love how it sounds. The input attenuator is useful when I'm pushing into it, and the transformer in it sounds good to me.
When you took the break from your own music during the pandemic and started working on other people’s projects, such as Boygenius [Julien Baker (Tape Op #125), Phoebe Bridgers, and Lucy Dacus], what was it like stepping into a high-level studio environment?
Boygenius reached out to me around January 2022, which was a completely wild and life-changing moment. Being surrounded by that many talented people was incredible. Catherine Marks [Tape Op #102] produced the record [The Record], and Sarah Tudzin [#145] and [Kaushlesh] "Garry" Purohit engineered. I did some additional production work and played a bit of bass. I remember watching Sarah Tudzin work in Pro Tools and thinking, "I need to get to that level." At that point, I was still using Logic Pro. Some bands and artists had asked if I could work in Pro Tools, and I would say, "No" – you can lose clients that way. I spent an intensive two to three months practicing in Pro Tools and picking the brains of all my engineer friends. Being in an environment like the Boygenius sessions was inspiring. I realized, "I need to get off my ass and get better."
I also love the Fenne Lily record [Big Picture] that you mixed.
That’s a record I’m proud of. I still get mixing inquiries because of it, and I feel so grateful to have worked on it with her. It was a special time. She cares about how she sounds and was very particular, which was a great learning experience. It also introduced me to the skill of working closely with artists and learning how to communicate with them. I'm not always going to get exactly what I want, but when we meet in the middle with a collaborative idea, something special happens. That record is truly magical. We spent a lot of time mixing it together. When we recorded her vocals, we used a Heiserman H47 tube mic that I had just got. She wanted her voice to be very dry and upfront, and it was cool learning how to achieve exactly what an artist wants on their own record.
For your last record, Belong, you brought on more collaborators. Was that influenced by the projects you worked on during your break?
Well, leading up to my break, I was spending a lot more time in the studio with other people. I recorded a band called Living Hour at a studio called No Fun Club in Winnipeg [Canada], and we went to town mixing that record. The band was really collaborative. They were open to every idea I had. I started getting more active with producing in 2024, and I also began writing my own record around that time. Steph Marziano [Tape Op #174], who’s based in London and is friends with Hayley Williams, convinced me to go to Nashville and record with her. I had toured with Paramore a couple of years earlier. There were a lot of failed attempts at making my record in 2024. I think I wasn’t ready yet. I was still riding the high from [playing on] the Boygenius tour and was focused on helping other people. I can always tell when I’m forcing something or overthinking it. If I have to push myself to write, I’ve lost the plot. So, in 2024, I got help from friends. Recording with others, or working as an engineer, producer, and mixer, helped me realize I needed support. I didn’t want to live in my own echo chamber. Having both perspectives of being an artist and a producer makes me understand how each side benefits the other.
It’s crazy how many hats you're able to wear: artist, producer, engineer, mixer, and touring musician. Do you feel like you're able to switch between these roles pretty seamlessly?
It feels very natural to me. I’ve always been the type of person who’s curious about a lot of different things. I love doing little hobbies, like air-dry clay. I’m really into biking right now. I’m also fascinated by people and their passions. One of my favorite things is talking to someone about something they love. It’s incredible to be able to share that curiosity with other people. I’ve always loved learning instruments, even if I’m not great at them. You should be bad when you’re learning. That means you’re exercising a muscle in your brain. I’ve been lucky enough to be a jack-of-all-trades type of musician. I can play a little piano, and for Boygenius, I played guitar, bass, trumpet, some synth, and even the [Roland] SPD [percussion pad]. When people ask me to produce now, I can step in and play parts if they need me. I think that’s a huge advantage, especially when collaborating with other artists.
Being genuinely interested in other people and their interests is a trait of a great producer. You can bring out the best performances from people if you understand where they’re coming from.
I've worked with controlling producers who insist on doing everything their way. It’s more about getting the credit, or putting their stamp on the music, without really having that connection or understanding of what the artist wants.
Did working on other artists’ projects teach you anything about engineering or producing that influenced how you approached your own record?
Yes, I definitely learned a lot. Working on the Fenne Lily record taught me the importance of using the right microphone for a voice. I used to just put up a random mic and sing into it. There are no hard rules, but I started experimenting more with different microphones. For example, the H47 didn’t work on one of my singles, "Float." I had originally recorded the vocals on that mic. It didn’t sound bad, but it didn’t fit the song. When I tried the [Shure] SM7B instead, it was like, boom! I didn’t even need to EQ it. I love recording vocals for other people now because I know exactly how it feels to be in that vulnerable position. Singing into a mic with an engineer and producer can be nerve-wracking. You need someone who hypes you up, listens carefully, and cares about both the performance and the technical side. Someone who is making sure the level isn’t clipping, that you’re the right distance from the mic, and that you can hear yourself properly in the headphones. When people track live here, I sometimes even take their headphones and make a mix for them, just to help them feel comfortable and get the best performance.
Having been on both sides of the mic, what’s your approach to helping someone deliver their best vocal performance in the studio?
It’s important to know when to stop. When Kyle Pulley, who co-owns Headroom Studios in Philly, recorded me for five days last year, he was great at saying, “Dude, should we take a break? We don’t have to go this hard.” One thing I’ve learned, especially from recording other people, is how to hang with them and anticipate their needs. I have to put them first. Maybe they’re hungry or having a rough day. Does that mean I need to push through and record intense vocals? Not necessarily. I can offer alternatives, like doing some comping or recording something fun and running it through pedals. Always having an idea for the artist is key. I’ve experienced it from the other side too. Having someone propose a creative idea when I wasn’t in the right headspace completely shifted my mindset. That awareness and flexibility makes a huge difference in the studio.
It can be hard for artists to know themselves in the moment. Checking in with how they’re feeling isn’t always easy. How about your approach to mixing? Do you mostly work in the box, or do you rely on a lot of outboard gear?
It’s a hybrid approach. If I’m mixing something small just for myself, I’ll sometimes sum tracks through the Neve because it’s fun. I'll also mix into my Tascam 48-OB 1/2-inch tape machine if I don't track to tape and dump into Pro Tools. But nowadays people are really particular, so most of the time I mix in the box for recall purposes. When I mix a project I'm engineering or producing, I'm fully pushing into the preamps and compressing if needed, making broad moves with EQ, and committing effects because it removes all the extra steps I have to explore while mixing in the box. My main [plug-in] EQ is the FabFilter Pro-Q 4, and I use an assortment of UAD, Soundtoys, Audiopunks, and Waves plug-ins on individual tracks. On my mix bus in Pro Tools, I have a UAD SSL G Bus, UAD ATR-102, Sonnox Oxford Inflator, and Brainworx bx_digital V3 EQ. Lately, I’ve been running a separate music bus and vocal bus with the Metric Halo MB MixHead first in the chain and some combination of the Black Box [Analog Design] HG-2MS and Plugin Alliance Shadow Hills [Mastering] Compressor on them. I have too many plug-ins now, but bringing sounds into the physical world helps. I’m always printing through the BURL B2 at the end of the chain. I’ll also route [channels] through the Neve and set up aux sends to my [Roland] Chorus Echo or the [Eventide] H3000 [Ultra-Harmonizer] and [Lexicon] Prime Time II [delay]. A lot of times I’ll re-amp into a cab in my living room or run [tracks] through pedals with the Franklin Audio RA-20 stereo re-amp box. The Chase Bliss blooper and Mood [pedals] are always my go-to for otherworldly textures.
Do you mostly see yourself as an engineer, mixer, producer, or musician these days?
I primarily see myself as a producer. I’d like to put myself out there more. I had a Zoom meeting with a band yesterday, and one of them said,ƒ “I’ve followed your music for so long, and I’ve only known you as a songwriter. I didn’t know you produce.” I hear that a lot, and I want to change that.
