It seems people really like you and that opened doors for you in the business, beyond simply engineering. What do you think it is about your own personal make-up that brings that into play?
I dunno. Back then, if we're talking about Rumours and the '70s, I was a young guy and I was pretty determined. I was a little quiet, probably, but I was very confident in my abilities. I had learned a lot from watching engineers, some of them really great, and I memorized everything. By the time I got to Rumours I had done a number of live albums — Joni Mitchell was the most notable [Miles of Aisles]. I did the strings for Wings' Venus and Mars; Paul McCartney came up to me and said it was one of the best string sounds. I was very comfortable with what I did. When they hired me to do Fleetwood Mac, all I had to do was just be myself. I didn't want to hold back. I told them on the third day [of tracking Rumours] that we were going to get a Grammy for this record. They went, "Sure." So I was intent on doing that, but then they threw me a curve. On the second or third day in the studio they said, "You can't just sit there, turning knobs. You have to participate and listen to what's going on. We want you to be our eyes and ears." We'd just done two takes, so it was questions like, "Which tempo did you like better? Which take did you like better? Were any of us stepping on each others' toes?" They wanted to make sure they were playing well, and that you could hear everything. They basically wanted me to learn to be a producer, like, "Here's how you do it."
Did you start to listen to the takes as they were going down carefully enough to have that information?
Yeah, I started taking notes. I basically produce by engineering. If I can't get all of the sounds to come up and be a good mix, it's like, "What's wrong?" If the sounds aren't the problem, then what is the problem? A couple of takes later I said to Christine [McVie], "Well, I was really having trouble hearing you and Lindsey [Buckingham], because it seemed like I couldn't tell your parts apart." She said, "Oh, Lindsey, why don't you play up a third and I'll play down a third." So I memorized that. Next time I said, "Hey, I think you guys are stepping on each others' toes. Can one of you play up and the other down a little bit?" They said, "Yeah, sure. We can do that. Thanks Ken!" I was like, "Wow... okay!"
Things they might not hear because they're focused on their own parts.
Yeah, right. That's really what production is. It's like English language; putting in the commas, the periods, and being a traffic cop. "Wait! You were playing way too much. Play half as much. You're playing perfectly and you guys work together." Sometimes, with these new guitar players, it's like, "Are you going to continue to play all the way through?" Don't they know if you play all the way through that the human ear, just like a buzz, will just notch it out? "They're not going to hear you at all. Is that what you want?"
I'm convinced that so much more of our time should be spent arranging,
Right. And less is more.
Do we enter into sort of a doctor/patient thing when we're in there making a record with someone? After writing a book about it years later, did you feel there were any points where you were putting too much out there?
I didn't think there was any trust violated. And I hope I'm right!
I'm not saying that in a critical way.
Right, but I thought it was my story. It's not their story. It's my story of what I went through being a fly on the wall and being right there. So yeah, maybe I had some hesitations about discussing John McVie's drinking. But he's a big boy, and he knows it! I'm not telling any secrets, and he made a terrific record. I just wanted to paint the picture of what it was like to be sitting in there and working with these people on a big-time album. And yeah, I might have told a little bit too much, but most of the time I tried to be more complimentary.
That must have been a rough time for him too, personally of course.
Yeah, but no. The deal on that was that Christine basically said, "John, I can't stand the drunk. So give me John the sober guy, and I'll stay." And what did he choose?
True. Partway through making that album Mick came to you and Richard Dashut [co-producer with Ken and the band] and said, "I'm giving you guys co-production credit." You got points at that juncture, which was a completely life-changing for both of you, I'm sure.
Completely, yeah.
When you look back at that, are you still blown away by that gesture?
Yes and no. It was a great gesture, but I believe good things come to those who deserve it. Many times I've said, "Look, if you don't want to give me points, if you don't think I'm doing the job, then don't. But if you think I'm doing the job, then I want to be paid." We were working very, very hard. Richard and I were in there, day in and day out, coming up with ideas. We deserved it, we earned it, and they were right by giving it to us.
I could see other scenarios where someone might not offer it.
